88

[crunchy1]

Villians are average. Both are in the 23-25 VP$IP Range. Villian #1 has a PFR% around 5% - while Villian #2 is closer to 11%. Both have AFs around 1.

Let's do this street by street....

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP2 <font color="#A500AF">(Villian #1)</font> calls, <font color="#CC3333">CO <font color="#A500AF">(Villian #2)</font> raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets...</font>

Starting with PF. I don't think I can fold this hand against these Villians. I don't like calling because the BB is pretty tight and I'll probably only get 3-way action anyways. There's a good chance I'm ahead of Villian #2 and would rather play HU OOP (versus 3-ways) so I 3-bet.

Sound good?

[toss]

I'd like preflop a lot more if you were in position or if MP2 wasn't in the hand. I'm tempted to fold here actually.

[spydog]

I'd rather call this and CR favorable flops. 3-betting bloats the pot OOP and makes it more likely that you will have to showdown the best hand. Calling and checkraising a lot of flops is the only way to take this down before the river.

[SnglMaltScotch]

I don't love this, but I don't hate it either. I would like it a lot more if we have seen MP2 not limp call in these types of situations. We are in bad position and 3betting creates a bigger pot to chase.

Overall, I think I call and see the flop. Planning to check raise a favorable one.

[jackdaniels]

I like 3 betting here. You have a very good chance of folding out the original limper and getting heads up. With a hand like 88, you really don't want to be OOP against 2 players, especially since it has already been raise pre-flop, making a flop bet worth calling for anyone with overcards. As to calling here and c/r a favourable flop - what do you do if the flop comes T high and the bet comes from limper? Face this guy with 2 raises pre-flop and let him fold his K/J; KTs; TJo or whatever it is that the kids limp first in with these days. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[thejameser]

i don't like it unless CO is a weak ninny(is that a word?) you can push off of most flops. by 3 betting, if you get it HU, CO will be getting 8.5-1 or whatever to peel. with overs he is correct to peel. but, you may have folded out hands with other overcards to hit the flop by 3 betting, so it has advantages as well. i guess crunch, if you think you can push him off of a hand on the flop it is not so bad. i could fold pf, however. this is a sticky situation that has to have alot go right for you to make it profitable.

I'm also tempted to fold this pf. I'm not sure how often 3-betting is going to get us HU, and when it doesn't we are going to have some tough decisions on later streets. Even if we do get HU here, playing this hand OOP is tricky on just about any board. I would be inclined to call if there were another limper or if the BB was loose, and would 3-bet without any limpers... but I think here I just fold. It's an interesting spot though... as I'm definately 3-betting TT and I'm not sure what I'm doing with 99 here.

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
i don't like it unless CO is a weak ninny(is that a word?) you can push off of most flops.

[/ QUOTE ]
I should've spoke to this in the OP... sorry.

Villian #1 was definitely the ninnier (or ninnyer - please advise on correct suffix? /images/graemlins/grin.gif) of the two. This is a big part of the reason I thought I could get it HU. Villian #2, however, was also capable of laying down.

Neither of these guys were calling stations.

EDIT:
I'm actually kind of surprised that this little piece generated all this discussion. It's not like it's a play I'm always making - but I didn't think it's as far out of line as some of you suggest.

To the people advocating to just fold to the LP raise - why? I'm ALWAYS at least calling in this situation (1 limper and a reasonably aggro PFR).

[KNOCKAHOMA]

My gut is telling me to fold pre-flop, but if I am going to play this I just call and see what he flop brings.

[ QUOTE ]
To the people advocating to just fold to the LP raise - why? I'm ALWAYS at least calling in this situation (1 limper and a reasonably aggro PFR).

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm curious, what would you do with 66 or 77 here? How big does your pair have to be do want to get involved likely 3 handed? I think being OOP against possibly 2 opponents (maybe 3 if the BB wakes up with a hand) Is enough to make me want to wait for a pair higher than 8s. Like I said, I think TT is an easy 3-bet, and I'm still not sure what I'm doing with 99, while 88 I'm okay folding. That's where my line is, where is yours?

[ErrantNight]

i don't think you get this HU nearly as often as you think

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
I think TT is an easy 3-bet, and I'm still not sure what I'm doing with 99, while 88 I'm okay folding. That's where my line is, where is yours?

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't have a prestablished line. Any "line" that I would use fluctuate depending on the opposition.

I will say that if you think we have enough equity with TT to make it an "easy" 3-bet - then we certainly must have enough equity to at least make 88 playable.

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
i don't think you get this HU nearly as often as you think

[/ QUOTE ]
You're probably correct... and hence the hand continues... /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8, 8.
3 folds, MP2 (Villian #1) calls, CO (Villian #2) raises, 1 fold, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets...</font>

<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 <font color="#A500AF">(Villian #1)</font> calls, <font color="#CC3333">CO <font color="#A500AF">(Villian #2)</font> caps</font>, Hero calls, MP2 <font color="#A500AF">(Villian #1)</font> calls.

Flop: (13 SB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, Villian #1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Villian #2 bets</font>, Hero?

[ QUOTE ]
I don't have a prestablished line. Any "line" that I would use fluctuate depending on the opposition.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nor do I. I was refering to this specific situation.

[damaniac]

16 ways to have AK
4 ways to have AQs (maybe he'd do this with AQo, but we'll just use this as an appropriate discount)
6 ways to have AA
6 for KK
6 for QQ
3 for JJ
6 ways to have TT

So we're behind a bit more often than we're ahead. We might be able to push him off TT, OTOH, if we are ahead, he will catch up to us 3x as often as will catch up to him (6 outs vs. 2). And we still have the other player to worry about, slight though it may be. Doing a Pstove calc, I give us about 25% equity vs. the two players, but it goes up to 37% if we knock out MP2.

This pot might be big enough to justify a check-raise on the flop, hoping to push out MP and to, well, "find out where we are", as much as I hate that term/concept. If we get 3-bet, I think we peel/fold. The problem there is an aggro player will 3-bet AK sometimes and lead the turn only to check the river behind, so I'd rather not put in extra bets there only to fold. So, I guess I'm peeling the flop, MP2 be damned. But I really think this is tough.

[Fat Nicky]

Well, we 3-bet pre-flop out of position. We didn't get the hand heads up and we got capped. I really don't like putting any more money into this pot.

I'm raising here. The pot is pretty gigundous and AK is certainly possible. I definately want to get Villain #1 out of here. If both villains call I'm going to be checking the turn unless I pick up a 7 or an 8. If Villain #1 folds and Villain #2 calls I'm leading a non A/K turn. If Villain #1 folds and Villain #2 raises I'm calling and folding the turn unless I pick up a straight draw or my 8.

[jackdaniels]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, we 3-bet pre-flop out of position. We didn't get the hand heads up and we got capped. I really don't like putting any more money into this pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

As ugly as this is, I think it may be correct.

[Fat Nicky]

[ QUOTE ]
This pot might be big enough to justify a check-raise on the flop, hoping to push out MP and to, well, "find out where we are"

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate this here as we were basically told with some certainlty "where we are" when our 3-bet was capped pre-flop.

[damaniac]

Yeah I definetly back-peddled on that. But it's a big pot and I think we do have enough equity to continue. Or at least we would if it were HU. Having a third player really sucks.

Assume for a moment that MP2 folds for one bet on the flop every time. We're looking at 18:5 to call down. Maybe 16:3 if we decide he'll not bet the river with AK/AQs UI. If his range is AA-TT, AKo, AQs, we have about 37% equity or so. We fold if a Q, K, or A falls. Sometimes he checks behind the turn with TT. I think that would be a clear calldown, at least until the river or the board got scary.

But that third player really complicates things.

[ErrantNight]

folding is probably fine but i'd rather peel and see what the turn brings.

you could always find:

(a) the miracle 8 on the turn

(b) the mysterious 7

(c) that the turn gets checked through

without one of these three things happening no more bets are going in to this pot

(unless, incredibly unlikely, villain #1 c/r's and villain #2 just calls and then, you're probably in a heapload of trouble but getting 1:21 on your money and are always peeling always closing the action)

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
you could always find:
(a) the miracle 8 on the turn
(b) the mysterious 7


[/ QUOTE ]
Do you have a plan for these instances?

[damaniac]

Of course, if it were HU the pot would also be smaller; and he might be trickier. So there's that caveat.

[ErrantNight]

i think i'd donk and hope to 3bet pretty much always, but it's easier with the other fish in between

[ErrantNight]

as opposed to planning to invest 1.5sb just to see where we are... why not see where we are on the turn? i noted earlier how your situation could improve dramatically... what if another face/ace card falls on the turn? what if villain #1 wakes up?

in other words... you're likely behind but it's close, and the turn can change things dramatically, either by what falls or what the action is...

why put in so much money now, when we're unsure?

[Fat Nicky]

ok....so I guess peeling the flop isn't too bad. But if we get bet into on the turn again I think folding is best (even if the turn is a non A or K) Once the pre-flop capper bets again on the turn, the chances of him having AK or AQ goes down, especially if the original limper comes along for the turn, in which case, the case becomes stronger for hightailing it out of there on the turn.

I just hate spewing chips w/middle pairs in a pot that was capped pre-flop. From experience, we seen a big pair a lot more often that we see big cards.

[damaniac]

Yeah, I saw the error of my ways pretty quickly. I hate raising the flop now, but I really dislike folding too. I'm convinced a peel is best.

[ErrantNight]

that was assuming an 8. if a 7 comes i c/call. i c/fold u/i on the river. i c/r or bet out depending on the card that completes the straight and how i feel about this opponent.

if the turn checks through i'm leading blank rivers. if it's an A i c/fold. likewise K. Q it's close. might c/call.

i'll lead a T river.

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I saw the error of my ways pretty quickly. I hate raising the flop now, but I really dislike folding too. I'm convinced a peel is best.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well... I raised... and then continued spewing on the turn...

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8, 8.
3 folds, MP2 (Villian #1) calls, <font color="#CC3333">CO (Villian #2) raises</font>, 1 fold, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, 1 fold, MP2 (Villian #1) calls, <font color="#CC3333">CO (Villian #2) caps</font>, Hero calls, MP2 (Villian #1) calls.

Flop: (13 SB) 6, 5, J (3 players)
Hero checks, Villian #1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Villian #2 bets</font>,

<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Villian #1 calls, Villian #2 calls.

Turn: (9.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets...</font>

I think at the time I thought I was definitely ahead of Villian #2. If I wasn't he was smooth-calling the flop and waiting to raise the turn.

I also thought that Villian #1 would have to have a pretty good hand here to continue. I thought that he'd fear being trapped between me and Villian #2 if he called. I thought that the chance I'm still ahead of Villian #1 and the possibility that he'd fold a better hand (99/TT) were good enough to warrant a bet.

This was the last bet that I intended to put in the pot UI. Looking at this now - I'm pretty confident that I spew goot! /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Fat Nicky]

I will say again, I hate putting multiple bets into capped pre-flop pots with middle pair. Having multiple players in the pot just multiplies my feelings.

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
I hate putting multiple bets into capped pre-flop pots with middle pair. Having multiple players in the pot just multiplies my feelings.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's a lot of multiplying! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[damaniac]

MP1 is sort of tight (23-25ish pf), so unless he suddenly loses his mind postflop, I really wonder what hands he cc's on the flop that don't beat you. I guess we just put the capper on AK, and pray he misses his 10-outer, but I suddenly feel ill betting into both those guys again, especially now MP1 (and of course capper could have AQ too).