hourly rate and what not

I've been playing a bit of shorthanded $50 NL on PartyPoker and although my sample size is rather small (600 hands), I just got PokerTracker and since it's awesome I'm just curious about what serious players shoot for in terms of hourly rate, BB/hour or BB/100 at this limit. If not this limit, other short handed NL tables.

[jsnipes28]

at 50nl you should shoot for at least 7ptbb, preferably something like 9ptbb. You'll find that when ur killing the game for 7-10K stretches of hands you can average towards 15-20ptbb but then after u lose a couple buy-ins it will bring it back down to low teens or 8-10ptbb. You won't really get a good idea of your win rate until after at least 25K hands that include a good-sized downswing and a recovery. So probably more like 30-35K hands.

[scrapperdog]

I just got tracker today as well. You can import hands. BTW here are my stats boys, feel free to rip me a new one. Only half my hands got read due to eurobet changing over I think.

http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/9177/ptstats7hk.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Definitely raise more pre-flop. VPIP of 16% is OK (kinda tight IMO, but definitely in acceptable range). But PFR of 1.6% is very low. If you are raising only AA, KK and AK, you are losing a lot of value. Please raise TT+ and AQ and loosen up more in later positions.

[scrapperdog]

Haha I was waiting for someone to say something. Just come out and say I am a rock, it is ok! /images/graemlins/smile.gif Sorry to hijack thread but think this pokertracker is kind of cool and wanted to show that you can import hands. I am assuming the guy is not playing shorthanded 50 NL after 600 hands played.

BTW the site that this is from (pokeroom) has about 75% or maybe more raised pots pre flop so the vast majority of these pots are raised. Just not by me. Party is a different story it is limp city there at the low limits and I would raise more there pre flop if I played there.

Edit... NM I am reading some of this crap wrong, I am new at this.

Well that explains the low PFR a bit, but I still think it should be higher. If people are raising with junk, you can want to re-riase with a good hand.

E.g. villain's PFR is 20%+, I'd reraise with AQo. You probably have him beat and ideally you want to play him heads up post-flop.

[scrapperdog]

I know I got to work on this, I got my tomato proof suit on cause I was actually expecting a bunch of hell from these stats.

[teamdonkey]

don't get too caught up in winrates. You will never play enough hands at a level to get a solid idea of what you're really making. You have to play about 100K hands to narrow it down to a 5BB/100 range. For example, if after 100K hands at 25NL you're running at 7BB/100, statistically you can say with 95% accuracy your real win rate is between 4.5 and 9.5 BB/100. That's a lot of hands and still not a tight range. What this says is even over a huge number of hands, luck is an enormous factor and you shouldn't take results so seriously.

Scrapperdog: there is no excuse for a PFR that low. You are absolutely missing out on a ton of value. If most of the pots are already raised, you're doing yourself a huge injustice by not repopping them with strong holdings. Good strategy on a loose table is to tighten up, but you have to be very aggressive when you do play. Which reminds me, your post flop aggression factor is way too low.

[scrapperdog]

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Scrapperdog: there is no excuse for a PFR that low. You are absolutely missing out on a ton of value. If most of the pots are already raised, you're doing yourself a huge injustice by not repopping them with strong holdings. Good strategy on a loose table is to tighten up, but you have to be very aggressive when you do play. Which reminds me, your post flop aggression factor is way too low.

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I know my PFR sucks but I actually thought my turn and river stats were kind of normal. This past month I have been working on being more agressive on the river with value betting a good but not the nuts hand that in the past I would have checked, mostly thanks to this forum. What would you say a good number is for all of these positions?

[teamdonkey]

WAY too low was probably an exageration. But you do want to be above 2 on all streets. Especially as tight as you are preflop, your hands have to be good enough to bet/raise with more than you are.

I can't stress enough how much you need to raise more preflop. 5% PFR is still considered very tight 10 handed.

[scrapperdog]

Thank you, I will take this into consideration.

[Cosimo]

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WAY too low was probably an exageration. But you do want to be above 2 on all streets. Especially as tight as you are preflop, your hands have to be good enough to bet/raise with more than you are.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I'm nut-peddling more now than I was at limit, or maybe I just sucked and called way too many raises, but PAHud is showing my AF at 5-10 fairly often.

I'm 16.5/4.2/4.9 at the moment; dunno if this is indicative of hands, tho I'm only 4PTBB/100h over this range.

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I can't stress enough how much you need to raise more preflop. 5% PFR is still considered very tight 10 handed.

[/ QUOTE ]

10-handed NL, I should have PFR > 5%? I'm really having trouble with raising this stuff. A9s from LP after limpers? KQo from EP? KJo first-in from MP?

If someone has >20k hands at SSNL, is winning, and has "the right numbers," I'd like to see your stats.

[teamdonkey]

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10-handed NL, I should have PFR > 5%? I'm really having trouble with raising this stuff.

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Don't deside your action solely on the strength of your hand... compare it to the likely range of people who have already acted. If you have A9s on the button and the two limpers already in are 40/5, you have a monster compared to their hand range. Not raising here is a crime but many won't do it, because A9s is a marginal hand. You have position and most likely a better hand... your action should be clear. Actively look for spots like this where you have position and are ahead of limper's likely range.

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If someone has >20k hands at SSNL, is winning, and has "the right numbers," I'd like to see your stats.

[/ QUOTE ]

I put in 33K hands at 25NL, almost always i was by far the tightest player at the table with 15/6/2.5. I think these are typical number for a tight aggressive player, maybe even on the low side of that range. Your aggression numbers are probably closer to optimal than mine.

Tight play is safe and will make you money. Loosening up (relatively speaking) can put you in more difficult situations, but will make you even more money and allow you to learn the game better.

[Maulik]

[ QUOTE ]
Definitely raise more pre-flop. VPIP of 16% is OK (kinda tight IMO, but definitely in acceptable range). But PFR of 1.6% is very low. If you are raising only AA, KK and AK, you are losing a lot of value. Please raise TT+ and AQ and loosen up more in later positions.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm working toward 21+

[scrapperdog]

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15/6/2.5.



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I am embarassed to say I dont know what this means.

[-Skeme-]

Hands: 22,825
VP$IP: 16
PFR: 6
Agg-Factor: 1.8
W$SD: 54

[DavidC]

pretty sure that this is listed in the faq somewhere.

I couldn't tell you hourly rate because I'm not sure how many hands per hour NL players play... so I'd clock yourself for an hour and then check the faq. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

The first number is the percentage of time you voluntarily put money into the pot. The second number is the percentage of time the player raises preflop. The last number is aggression factor. I think this is calculated by (# of bets + #of raises)/(# of calls).

[Cosimo]

[ QUOTE ]
pretty sure that this is listed in the faq somewhere.

I couldn't tell you hourly rate because I'm not sure how many hands per hour NL players play... so I'd clock yourself for an hour and then check the faq. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Including occasional bio breaks, I get about 60 hands/hr per table at the Party $25 and $50 NL.

[scrapperdog]

Pokertracker tells you exactly how much you make an hour. Some math formula involving # of hours played, average number of tables being played during that time, and the amount won.

[DavidC]

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Including occasional bio breaks, I get about 60 hands/hr per table at the Party $25 and $50 NL.

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Wow, that's pretty decent. I've found it to be a little slower than that... I think... I played maybe 30-35k hands of party nl 25 maybe 6-9 months ago.

Someone here says that in order to consider your winrate you should go through a downswing first. GOOD ADVICE!

My first 25k hands were at something like 19ptbb/100, maybe a little less or more. Then I think I lost something like 250-500 over the next 10k hands. It was brutal enough that I quit poker for a bit and then started up again at the 2/4 LHE. I still occassionally splash around in the NLHE games, though. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

--Dave.

[ QUOTE ]
Pokertracker tells you exactly how much you make an hour. Some math formula involving # of hours played, average number of tables being played during that time, and the amount won.

[/ QUOTE ]
PT tells you how much you make per table-hour, that is $won/(#tables*hours). If PT says you make $4/hr at 25NL, when you are four tabling, your actual hourly rate is $16/hr.

Another example: say you won two $25 buyins during a 3 hour session while 4 tabling. PT calculates your hourly rate here to be $50/(3 tabes * 4 hours) == $4.16/hr.

This is the only logical way to calculate winrate as a function of time.

[scrapperdog]

In mine it gives both numbers, not just table hours but actual hours as well.

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Then I think I lost something like 250-500 over the next 10k hands. It was brutal enough that I quit poker for a bit and then started up again at the 2/4 LHE.

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You lost 2.5 to 5 buyins over 10k hands and quit poker? That seems crazy to me. Isn't that just a variance hiccup? I think it gets much worse!

Oh, and shorthanded limit has some nasty stretches of its own, I went 40k hands of breakeven 10/20 6max.

[leehrat]

yeah that's kind of ghey

I think I may be running hot at 25NL. I have had one 3 buy in downswing, and one of 4 buy ins. I have dropped 4 buyins in my 1500 hand attempt at 50NL, but think a lot of that is due to sub-optimal play.

Anyway my 25NL and PL numbers are

Hands : 20383
VPIP : 19.49 (I am still too loose from EP)
PFR : 5.87
AF Flop - 2.8
AF Turn - 3.0 (too many second barrels??)
AF River - 2.3
W$SD - 51.5%
Winrate - 14.9PTBB/100

[Aytumious]

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Then I think I lost something like 250-500 over the next 10k hands. It was brutal enough that I quit poker for a bit and then started up again at the 2/4 LHE.

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You lost 2.5 to 5 buyins over 10k hands and quit poker? That seems crazy to me. Isn't that just a variance hiccup? I think it gets much worse!

Oh, and shorthanded limit has some nasty stretches of its own, I went 40k hands of breakeven 10/20 6max.

[/ QUOTE ]

He said he had a $250-500 downswing at 25NL. That is pretty bad for that level.