A Turn Check (1 of 3)

[Clarkmeister]

Juicy Mirage 10-20. 4 limpers to The Live One on the button who raises, I call in the SB with As3s, BB and the rest call.

Flop: Ks Ts 3c. I bet, Reasonable BB raises, all fold to me, I 3-bet, he 4-bets, I call.

Turn: 2s. I check.

[Bob S.]

It's been a while since I've been here and a while since I just started playing again (too busy) so here are my thoughts. I think I would have just led out on the turn, I assume you were playing for the check raise but if he is the reasonable player you say he is I think the turn checkraise may wake him up a bit to what you are holding. Also he may raise you again on the turn if he has a strong holding (which he appears to have) and he feels you are testing him out when the 3rd spade hit. Lastly, should he be holding something like a set of tens he may even decide to take a free turn card after you check (just out of curiousity, I'm guessing he had trip tens or JsQs).

Bob S.

[Dante]

What are your intentions with the check? (check-raise I'd assume?). ...and then the river?

[Instinct]

I'd bet turn. He might raise you with a set or smaller flush. After 3 betting flop I doubt he would fold.
If you check raise turn he may lay down a strong ace and you lose money.
If he will bet turn and river regardless then I guess you could go for a CR on river, but I personally prefer to get the chips in the middle usually.

[elysium]

hi clark
just terrible. i can't believe that this is a meister hand. firstly, you should of course check the flop for the reasons exhibited. you have to know that clark. from the SB check the dand thing to gain position for crying out loud.

on the turn, after much flop savagery, you allow the set a free-card with your holding the nut flush. total irresponsibility here clark. how can you not bet your nut flush here? he's not going to allow a check-raise on that scary board. yes, the pre-flop action is unusual, but not outlandish for the nut flush. anyway, you must stop the free-card. you cannot depend on his betting. i'm sure you'll write back that indeed he did bet, but that's your job here, not his.

[Mikey]

Clark if it were me, I would 5-bet the flop. I pray for flops like this. You are going to the river regardless.

The only reasonable hand you could be up against is a set. or top two pair or two pair, even against two pair, you are not that big of a dog.

I would reraise on the flop here for several reasons.
1) You'll look like a maniac to the other players.
2) You can definitley set this guy up on tilt if you win.
3) You'll appear lucky if you win.

Now on the turn, I would lead out here.
I hate it getting checked back to me.

I hate checkraising.

[Mikey]

smaller flush is highly unlikely as most players would have called with that holding since it cries for multiway.

A set is likey because it needs to be protected from straight draws and flush draws.

Highly unlikely he has a strong Ace since he 4 bet the flop.
Most typical players won't pount top pair on such a coordinated board after getting reraised by the initial bettor.

His most likely holding is a set, or two pair.

[Mikey]

This hand should not be checked, he should lead out as he did.

You have a King high flop with a flush draw and a straight draw.
This hand figures to touch most hands that typical players play and you have to get money in with this hand on the flop.

Checking this flop is just bad poker.
You have a mega draw.
Jam this flop.

[CrackerZack]

perfect place for a C/R either on the turn or river if you can count on him to bet. I can't see him not having a min of 2-pair but more likely a set so i can see an argument for leading out, but I like the C/R better.

[34TheTruth34]

My thinking must be way off, because you played it differently than I would have on every street. Please show me the error of my ways. Here's what I would have done:

1. I think I fold preflop
2. I think I check the flop to see if I can trap people for a raise. The problem I have with betting out is exactly what happened. The next player 3-bet and everybody else folded. That's not what I'd want to happen here.

Not to be results oreinted, but it sure looks like you would have been able to trap a bunch of players and then raise. If the BB then three-bets, you can four-bet with your huge draw.

3. I think I just bet the turn and river and expect to get paid off. I'd hate to have this checked behind.

However, there are a lot of hands that he'd pound on the flop that he would still bet on the turn even given the flush card, like KT, TT, and Q /forums/images/icons/spade.gif J /forums/images/icons/spade.gif. If he has one of those hands, you can get in a check-raise and lead the river. On the ohter hand, if you put him on a hand like AK, then he probably wouldn't bet the turn.

I'd really like to see you explain your thinking on the hand.

[34TheTruth34]

smaller flush is highly unlikely as most players would have called with that holding since it cries for multiway.

But what if he had Q /forums/images/icons/spade.gif J /forums/images/icons/spade.gif? If the game was soft and players were calling all kinds of bets and raises anyway, then he very well might raise with his big draw.

[Uston]

You'll look like a maniac to the other players.

If you played an appreciable amount of time with Clarkmeister, you'd realize that this isn't something with which he has a problem.

[Uston]

I can't argue with any of your actions in this hand. Having three-bet the flop out of position, he'll probably put you on something other than a spade draw, which, I think, is the most important consideration. His actions on the flop would mean two things to me. He flopped a very good hand and it isn't a draw.

If he's not drawing dead, he'll bet the turn. Hell, if he's agressive enough to four-bet a hand like KQ or KJ he still may bet the turn.

[J.A.Sucker]

I would have 5 bet the flop here, Clark, and then lead out at the turn. If 6 bet on the flop, then I'd call and lead out when I hit my flush. If he has 2 pair, then you're still in great shape vs him on the flop. If he has a set, you're still OK. This is probably a nit, though.

Do you think he'll bet the turn here every time? A free card is a disaster, IMO. I'd prefer not to risk letting a dude hit a 4 outter on me for free in a largish pot, so I'd bet. He'll call you down (at least), due to pot size.

[Clarkmeister]

FWIW to those responding to this thread, Uston just wrote down exactly what I was thinking at the table when the hand was being played.


Great to see you posting again bud. Hope you find your way out here soon.

[tj00]

Any chance this player might see a turn CR as a bluff and 3 bet you. Your flop action does not look like a draw and he may think you are trying push him off the pot when the scare hit on the turn. If he is capable of playing like this I like the check.

[JTG51]

... I would 5-bet the flop.
The only reasonable hand you could be up against is a set.

Why would you want to 5-bet if you think he's got a set. Raises to build an image, if you are determined to make them, should be saved for situations that are close to break even. This is not one of them. Clarkmeister is a significant dog against a set. He'll only win a showdown about 30% of the time.

Even if you read the opponent for 2 pair Clarkmeister is a small underdog.

[JTG51]

I think I check the flop to see if I can trap people for a raise. The problem I have with betting out is exactly what happened. The next player 3-bet and everybody else folded. That's not what I'd want to happen here.

Not to be results oreinted, but it sure looks like you would have been able to trap a bunch of players and then raise. If the BB then three-bets, you can four-bet with your huge draw.

The preflop raiser was directly to Clarkmeisters right. If Clarkmeister checks, the most likely action is going to come form him. Then a check raise would make the entire field face 2 bets cold. By betting he can get a couple of callers before the preflop raiser acts. Don't you agree the preflop raiser is much, much more likely to raise his bet than the BB is?

[J_V]

The turn check is not a disaster for he is not folding to a turn bet if he has outs nor does he have odds to draw to a four outer (even for free), if he is paying a river bet no matter what because of this check.

Missing a bet on the turn that your opponent would call is around a 17-18 dollar mistake though (if he has 4 outs).

[Lee Jones]

/forums/images/icons/shocked.gif

You went to war on the flop (which is fine with a bazillion outs).

But now the perfect card hits on the turn. You're not supposed to have a flush - you went to war on the flop pre-flush. Now you bet, and he, knowing you don't have the flush, raises. You three-bet!

BarryT, in his excellent talk at the WPPC, listed as one of the ten most common mistakes in hold'em, "Not betting your hand when you make it."

You blew it, kid.

Regards, Lee

P.S. I don't mean to be hard on you. Normally, I love your play, and learn a lot from it. It just felt to me like you played this one bass-ackwards all the way.

[Lee Jones]

FWIW to those responding to this thread, Uston just wrote down exactly what I was thinking at the table when the hand was being
played.

Okay, so you put him on a big hand and he doesn't put you on spades. Can you think of a better time to bet the nuts?

Regards, Lee

[Louie Landale]

So, after he 4-bets you bet into him again. Most everyone will think "set". You only get 3-bets when he's got trip Ks or Js or he also made a flush. If he's got KsUpJacks or is overplaying AA or AK, you only get one (he calls).

You should bet if you have good reason to believe he'll raise, such as if he's SURE to have a big set (he's weak-tight) OR he's loose-aggressive. Normal folks won't raise here.

You should also bet out against real "tricky" folk since he's almost surely going for a "free" card.

Betting out makes a bunch of sense when hero got the last bet in on the previous round.

- Louie

[Ulysses]

Bet the turn. If he's the kind of aggressive player who is definitely going to bet the turn for you, there's a decent chance he'll raise you. I'll risk the one extra bet (the checkraise) to guarantee that I get two bets and give myself a chance at four bets.

[skp]

Hm...I think that going for the checkraise here is clearly the better play. I am surprised that this turn decision (which I think is the easiest of the 3 turn decisions that Clark posted) has generated so much discussion and disagreement.

Given the bet sequence on the flop, it will be extremely difficult to get 3 bets on the turn. On the other hand, it wil be extremely easy to get at least 1 bet and likley two by checkraising.

One point that no one has made (although I haven't read all responses):

You might want to bet if you think that this guy is drawing dead and will fold to a turn checkraise. That is, there are some good players who play the flop aggressively with top pair but who will then fold to a checkraise here on the turn confident that the checkraiser must have a flush. Against this type of player, it is best to bet out on the turn as he will probably call you and then call again on the river.

I also agree with Louie as to other situations when a bet would be better than a checkraise but in general, I think that checkraise is the better play.

I didn't hear Barry T's talk nor do I know the context in which he made his comment, but I would be surprised if he disagreed vehemently with the checkraise choice here.

[bruce]

I like your flop play. On the turn I would look at my hole
cards and take a big breath and fire away. Hopefully he
has a set or smaller flush and he will raise you and now
you can put in a third bet. If you check and he bets now
when you checkraise it is unlikely you will get a third bet
in there. Plus there is no guarantee that he might not check it right back to you. I think you suffered from a temporary case of fancy play syndrome on the turn.

Bruce

[Mikey]

if the game was No-Limit, I think I would go all in on this hand, or at least wager half my stack, hoping that someone would come over the top of me where I can make my decision of whether to play back.

What is wrong with a 5-bet.

If he's up against a set, then he's up against a set, move onto the next hand.

[PlanoPoker]

Opponent's perspective: I'm not putting Clark on the flush draw. I 4-bet the flop, because I either have a made hand or a smaller flush draw. Am I going to check through the turn here and miss a bet? No way, I have to bet here. When I get raised I'm going to call. (or 3 bet if I have a flush)

But if I 4-bet Clark and then he bets out on the turn, what should I think? I think he has a strong enough hand that he is afraid to miss a bet due to the scare card. I'm just going to call here without a flush or top set. Even top set might just call here after Clark decides he cannot check to the raiser. That is why checking to the raiser is such a common play! The check-raise will get you an extra bet on the way to the river.

[Bob S.]

If you feel that your opponent is that aggressive and the fact that your hand doesn't seem to be too apparent to him , wouldn't that be a good reason to bet out and hope to get him for 3 bets???

Bob S.

[DiamondDave]

The preflop call was a bit loose, but Axs has potential. I probably would have done the same thing.

I like the flop action. You made the pot so big he can't lay down his hand even if he fears a flush. 5-betting would have been fine, but you did good.

You gotta bet the turn and hope he has a flush. He might give you a lot of action, thinking you're semibluffing with AsKh or beaten with 8s7s.

Were you trying to represent a semi-bluff check-raise and induce him to three-bet so you could four-bet (knowing that he would never four-bet a three-bettor)?

[Lee Jones]

Well, first, it's important to note that I'm paraphrasing Barry and obviously he is not responsible for what I say. I don't want to put words in his mouth.

So let's set that aside. In short, we have to decide the relationship between (p(one_turn_bet) + 3*p(three_turn_bets)) and (2*p(two_turn_bets)).

I always figure that there's a dramatic drop-off between p(one_turn_bet) and p(two_turn_bets) (and granted, a huge drop-off between two and three). So if I'm a little confused in a situation like this, I tend to fire away and be sure the thing doesn't get checked through and make me look stoopid.

Also, as somebody else pointed out, a check-raise on the turn is a very strong statement ("I have a monster, you fool"). If he was getting suspicious about you, he might call twice on the turn and river, but give it up for one check-raise on the turn. Of course, if you three-bet the turn, then he knows you truly do have it all, but by then the damage is done.

Regards, Lee

[Uston]

His opponent is likely to bet a good king, two pair, or a set on the turn. His opponent is likely to raise only when he's drawing very live with a set, which kills some of the value of getting the third bet in there. I guess it comes down to whether or not his opponent would raise with KT here. Maybe I'm biased because I know that I sure as hell wouldn't.

[J.A.Sucker]

You're right that "a disaster" might not be the correct term, but a ~ 1BB error is somewhat significant. Further, it may be worse, since he either will be calling while drawing dead, or he may throw away a hand that could catch up, since he "knows" he's beaten. It may not be correct to toss away two-pair here, due to pot size, but let somebody make a mistake. By checking, this can't occur.

This is somewhat counteracted by the point you make regarding the call on the river that the dude wouldn't make on the turn, but I think betting is the way to go.

[Clarkmeister]

“Having three-bet the flop out of position, he'll probably put you on something other than a spade draw, which, I think, is the most important consideration. His actions on the flop would mean two things to me. He flopped a very good hand and it isn't a draw.

If he's not drawing dead, he'll bet the turn. Hell, if he's agressive enough to four-bet a hand like KQ or KJ he still may bet the turn.” – Uston


As I mentioned in a different post, Uston summed up my thoughts almost exactly. So I don’t think he puts me on a flush draw. However, consider his possible hands:

A flush: I think this is highly unlikely given that he raised to eliminate the field. However if he does have a flush, he may 3 will likely 3-bet my checkraise which gets me more than doing the 3-betting myself. However, I thought it highly unlikely this player had a flush.

A set: A set is unlikely to check here headsup, and will definitely pay off a checkraise. Again, I think that if he is aggressive enough to raise my turn bet with a set, he is probably aggressive enough to 3-bet my checkraise. Regardless, he’s not checking a set here. Its far more likely in my mind that a set will bet and call a checkraise but only call a bet from me.

2-pair: 2 pair definitely isn’t raising a turn bet but will bet for sure and will also call and payoff a checkraise.

1-pair: There is always the chance that he simply tried to slow me down with the headsup 4-bet simply to get to a cheap showdown with a mediocre holding. In this case he will likely fold to a turn bet, but will payoff on the river. Plus, he is drawing dead on the turn and could improve enough to raise himself if I fire the fishy river bet into him after he checked the turn.

Overall I still think going for the checkraise here is the better play. I just don’t see getting raised all that often in this spot in a 10-20. In a 20-40 it might happen more often but despite the fact that I tried to represent a non-flush hand on the flop, I don’t know that “reasonable” 10-20 players are trusting their reads enough to do all this raising and reraising on the turn with hands like 2 paor or sets when the flush comes. At least, not in Vegas.

A few other factors that weren’t in the initial post: First, I had a killer tight aggressive image. On one hand I 3-bet the flop with the nut flush and got excess action because of it. I think checking here is a big part of balancing. A turn checkraise isn’t something I attempt that often but it is something a player as aggressive as myself needs to avoid getting bet out of pots when I would like a free card on the turn. This is particularly important against other aggressive players. For example, in the 2+2 home game in San Francisco the other month, I checkraised far more often than is normal for me in order to slow down my opponents.

In summary , I think this was a good spot to try it since any hand not drawing dead is certain to bet the turn and call a raise, but uncertain to raise if bet into. And any hand drawing dead on the turn is also unlikely to call that turn bet.

BTW, I think 5-betting the flop is a very reasonable option. Mucking A3s in this spot is IMO a mistake. When the flop is going to be taken 6 or 7 ways for 2 bets, I am not folding any suited ace or any pair. I would have mucked 89s though.

Thanks for all the comments, I'll post results in a bit because I'd like to see a few more thoughts, and I'd like to respond to a few specific posts. Sorry if I don't get to respond to all of you, this post is intended as sort of a catch-all because of all the great responses.

[Mikey]

"Raises to build an image, if you are determined to make them, should be saved for situations that are close to break even."

Even if the opponnent has top two pair, Clarky is a tiny tiny dog (almost akin to a Chow), almost even money.

[Michael Davis]

"just terrible"

That was my thought, too, when I got here.

-Mike

[34TheTruth34]

The preflop raiser was directly to Clarkmeisters right

Yes I know.

If Clarkmeister checks, the most likely action is going to come from him.

Not necessarily. I guess that would depend on what type of game it is. If everyone is habitually checking to the preflop raiser, then yes. But, if players in the game just bet their hand, then mathematically one of the other players is more likely to hit the flop than the preflop raiser.

Then a check raise would make the entire field face 2 bets cold. By betting he can get a couple of callers before the preflop raiser acts

I wouldn't check-raise the preflop raiser if the action got checked around to him and he bet. But maybe somebody to Clark's left will bet (which, again not to be results-oriented, is what would have happened) and then he can trap check-raise. If the preflop raiser bets, I'd just call in order to leave people in the hand and if another player check-raises, then you can 3-bet.

Don't you agree the preflop raiser is much, much more likely to raise his bet than the BB is?

I think the next person who plays the hand is likely to raise his flop bet. This hand reminds me of Feeney's chapter on semi-bluffing into a sure raise. Although Clark's bet is more like betting for value with a huge overlay than semi-bluffing. I stick to my original thoughts and still don't like the way it was played.

[J_V]

I agree...I think in the long run checking and betting would come out pretty close to neutral.

[Clarkmeister]

I checked my nut flush, my opponent checked behind. The river was a 3 making the final board [KsTs3x2s3x]. I bet, and my opponent almost folded, actually grabbed his cards back and reluctantly called. My hand was obviously good.

Totally irrelevant, but since he barely called the river, I strongly suspect he folds the turn if I bet out.