Where to restart?

After the worst 2 days of bad beats and 2nd-best monsters in my life, my little $1k bankroll is gone and I'm trying to decide where to restart. (I'm not saying I was by far the best player or anything. But the string of beats was truly epic. I will be glad to post them if anyone doubts this.)

I have no doubt that I was playing above my head with too small a bankroll. Also instead of moving down in the levels when the ugliness started I moved up to win it all back. I KNOW this is just out and out gambling. But I had gotten lucky doing this in the past, and I do have a well paying day job to cushion the blow. IE - I'm not out on the street.

I feel like as long as I don't do anything dumb I'm a winner at the $27s, how much above the rake I don't know. I think I'm hovering around breakeven at the $60s, and in over my head a little at the $119s (I like the 6-handed turbos at Stars - like poker crack). I've tried one $215 for grins, busted out on the bubble ATdd to ATcc. Up until then I had gotten pretty lucky whenever I played over my head, which had significantly jumpstarted my bankroll.

I know that the correct thing to do is to go back to the $27s or lower, play ABC poker, and build my BR back up. But the problem is... I don't wanna. I like playing against the trickier (to me anyway) players at the $60s and up--players who are capable of coming over the top of continuation bets with air, checking the river w/a monster, folding TPTK, etc. To me I feel like I'm really learning how to play in tough games and being forced to learn to recognize and execute more sophisticated tricks. As opposed to just waiting around to bust someone calling with A7. (I'm not saying everyone at the $27s does that. But there are almost always 1 or 2 at the beginning, and that's where you make your ROI right? I just feel like mixing it up at the $60s is getting me closer to my goal of someday being a truly great player. I wonder whether learning how to crush the $27s would be as beneficial.

So anyway, sounds like I just answered my own question. Thanks for listening to me ramble. I would really appreciate hearing from anyone on this board who may have faced a similar crossroads. Thoughts, suggestions, flames, anything. Please blast away.

thx,
Matt

[tigerite]

Not being funny.. but how did you lose a $1k bankroll in 2 days if you were playing at a sensible level for such a roll (i.e. $22s in my opinion) or dropping down when you lost too much to be adequately rolled for your current level?

Ah sorry missed that part of the post. Well, start over again at the $11s and next time, be sure to have a sensible bankroll requirement and not to play above it and rely on "having good luck". I had the same strategy when I played a year ago. Now I'm much more risk averse.

[bones]

So put another $1000 in, play over your head, lose it again and consider it tuition. There's nothing wrong with this approach if you don't care about the money.

I should add that discipline is one of THE keys to becoming a great poker player. It seems pretty clear to me from your post that you lack it, and that will probably hold you back more than you realize.

[tigerite]

And tough if you "don't wanna" unless you want to be in this self same position again in a few months. Being a successful poker player is about more than knowing how to play your cards, positions and what have you. It's also about having sensible money management and never going above your head, or relying on luck. Remember that we, as successful poker players, are always fighting against luck - never relying on it. That's for donks to do. You obviously don't belong at the $60s if your attitude is that you are "too good" for the $11s. It's a losing frame of mind and before you go any further I suggest you snap out of it.

That would be a negatory on both (2nd paragraph). My point is not whether what I did was prudent, it wasn't. I'm just trying to decide where to go from here.

I guess I should have added that I also keep feeling this time factor in that I don't have nearly enough time in the day to get the experience I need fast enough. And I don't feel like the poker boom is going to last forever. Although I think it might be a little silly on my part to be stressing about taking a few extra months to get out there as a full time pro.

[tigerite]

You're being very silly to think about such trivial things as whether the 'poker boom' will last long enough - this sounds like an excuse to me that you have used psychologically to tell yourself to play at a level where you don't belong, both experience and bankroll wise. When I came back from my poker hiatus, when I was playing the $55s before I left, I started right over at the $11s again. Sure I wasn't there long, because I only needed $500 to have 100 buyins for the $22s, and so on. This was just 4 months ago and now I'm at the $109s. If I can do it, no reason you can't. I wasn't even half the player 4 months ago that I am now, either.

Bones nailed it for me - you have to have discipline to play poker, and I don't just mean by folding a lot in the early levels of an SNG.

[ QUOTE ]
I should add that discipline is one of THE keys to becoming a great poker player. It seems pretty clear to me from your post that you lack it, and that will probably hold you back more than you realize.

[/ QUOTE ]

Point very well taken.

[microbet]

Tigerite and Bones said it all. Using your income as BR and your BR as tuition is fine if you are comfortable with that, but make a plan and don't tilt up.

And, represent Redondo.

If you just want to have fun and you have a good job, then play whatever levels you feel like. If, however, you want/need to make money at this, start at the $11s or maybe the $22s.

In response to your other post, if you have a good job, then you don't need to hurry up and be a poker pro. Besides, even if the "boom" ends, you could still be a poker pro. You would just have to be really good.

Will

Ok, thanks bones, tigerite, microbet. Initially I debated whether there was any point in making this post, but now I'm seriously glad I did. And please don't think that I think I'm "too good" for the $11s or anything. I just hadn't really had my clock cleaned moving up, until now. Oh yeah, and my job is incredibly boring and I'd really like to quit. I love what I do (internet dev) but this job is thr programming equivalent of taking out the trash every day. I really don't know why they hired me. Also I think discovering poker was going to make any job boring. So I'd like to quit, work contract gigs so I can have a more flexible schedule, and pursue poker as much as I can.

So anyway, here's the plan:

1. Seed the bankroll at $400.
2. Start playing the $27s (maybe the occasional 6x$35 for variety). If I run dry, start over at the $11s.
3. Don't move up until I have 20+ buyins, so $1200 until I can play the $60s again.
4. Adhere to #3, even if I get pissed at the poker gods, prove that I have the discipline.
5. Get pokertracker and pokerstove, try to dedicate an hour pre or post session to analysis, not just playing.
6. Post problem hands here.
7. Find a coach/mentor (already started this process w/johnnybeef). I did offer to pick up ZeeJustin's dry cleaning just to watch him play for a session, but apparently he's busy these days or something.
8. Work with study partner (started).
9. Switch to Party, get rakeback (I think I have a guy). I'm curious if the tables really are much softer than Stars.

Anything I'm missing on there? Again any thoughts, flames, etc. very much appreciated. I'll keep you posted on how my plan goes.

thx,
Matt

[tigerite]

Well, it's a better plan than the first time, but I seriously think 20 buyin is too slim. It's not enough. Losing 20 buyins is not unheard of at all - 30 and 40 have been known - I would say 30 should be the bare minimum myself.

[tigerite]

Also, when you are considering buyins and how much xx buyins you need, you should always include the vig. So $27 x 20 would be $540, not $400. You still have to pay it you know.

Yeah, I'm counting the vig. I figured I'd try a compromise between my reckess 10 buy-in approach and the standard 30. I think I can get away with this as long as I have the day job. We'll see how it goes /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[tigerite]

Well ok good luck, but I dropped 40 at the $55s on Party, just to warn you. I was lucky that it was after I had had a >100 buyin swing upward beforehand, otherwise I would have been back to the $33s toute de suite.

[bones]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I'm counting the vig. I figured I'd try a compromise between my reckess 10 buy-in approach and the standard 30. I think I can get away with this as long as I have the day job. We'll see how it goes /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know any other way to say it, so I'll be direct. If you keep 20 buyins for the level you're playing at, you'll eventually have to reload. I can almost guarantee that every successful sng player has had at least one 30 buyin downswing. Unless you're the greatest sng player of all time and somehow immune to variance, you're going to be making this exact same post again in 2 months.

[skipperbob]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, thanks bones, tigerite, microbet. Initially I debated whether there was any point in making this post, but now I'm seriously glad I did. And please don't think that I think I'm "too good" for the $11s or anything. I just hadn't really had my clock cleaned moving up, until now. Oh yeah, and my job is incredibly boring and I'd really like to quit. I love what I do (internet dev) but this job is thr programming equivalent of taking out the trash every day. I really don't know why they hired me. Also I think discovering poker was going to make any job boring. So I'd like to quit, work contract gigs so I can have a more flexible schedule, and pursue poker as much as I can.

So anyway, here's the plan:

1. Seed the bankroll at $400.
2. Start playing the $27s (maybe the occasional 6x$35 for variety). If I run dry, start over at the $11s.
3. Don't move up until I have 20+ buyins, so $1200 until I can play the $60s again.
4. Adhere to #3, even if I get pissed at the poker gods, prove that I have the discipline.
5. Get pokertracker and pokerstove, try to dedicate an hour pre or post session to analysis, not just playing.
6. Post problem hands here.
7. Find a coach/mentor (already started this process w/johnnybeef). I did offer to pick up ZeeJustin's dry cleaning just to watch him play for a session, but apparently he's busy these days or something.
8. Work with study partner (started).
9. Switch to Party, get rakeback (I think I have a guy). I'm curious if the tables really are much softer than Stars.

Anything I'm missing on there? Again any thoughts, flames, etc. very much appreciated. I'll keep you posted on how my plan goes.

thx,
Matt

[/ QUOTE ]

You, my young friend, are "Royal" & "Truly" Phucked....Your whole post reeks of noobishnous of an unimaginable degree.

-You have no discipline
-20 to 30 buyins isn't even close to an adequate bankroll
(Bones; you should know better)
-You're gonna go broke, then eat your own poop, then beg for a steady job...maybe tie Stanzee's shoelaces.
-The only thing you left out was the BJ lessons from that crazy little bald dude

Kiss ur Arse goodbye & learn simple Russian verbs...then move into "Thug Mansion" /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Melchiades]

I'm using 40 buyins BR. I move down when I get to 40 buyins for the buy in below though. Should be ok?

[TheNoodleMan]

[ QUOTE ]

-You're gonna go broke, then eat your own poop,

[/ QUOTE ]
That made me laugh so hard /images/graemlins/grin.gif that that I dropped my ice cream cone and the pointy part landed on my toe and made it bleed. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

You seem to be getting the right idea, but there are dangerous indications that you still don't get it. Discipline means having a plan and sticking to it. Giving yourself room for sometimes playing around in other levels is a recipe for disaster. Some players can do it- not that it doesn't hurt their BR- but a person like yourself, who clearly has a discipline problem, should set strict rules for himself. I'll also add another voice to the masses- 20 buy-ins isn't enough, and 30 isn't standard. I would say 40 should be a minimum. Also, stay at the level until you are consistently beating it, not just until you have a good enough heater to hit 35 buy-ins at the 60's. Good job asking for help, though. There are other players who had to blow a bankroll way more often before they figured out something was wrong.

[splashpot]

[ QUOTE ]
But I had gotten lucky doing this in the past

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Up until then I had gotten pretty lucky whenever I played over my head

[/ QUOTE ]
I didn't read all of the replies yet, so I'm not sure if anyone mentioned this. But the arguement that you've been lucky doing this in the past is not valid. If you think this is reason for you to keep doing this, you need to look up independent events and gambler's falacy.

[bones]

[ QUOTE ]
-20 to 30 buyins isn't even close to an adequate bankroll
(Bones; you should know better)


[/ QUOTE ]

My 30 buyin downswing comment wasn't suggesting that 30 was adequate, just that everyone I know has experienced at least that. I've dropped 40 and there's absolutely no way I'd play with less than 75 at any time. But if I posted #s like that, the OP would simply laugh off my comments, because clearly he has no clue about normal variance in poker.

[inyaface]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
-20 to 30 buyins isn't even close to an adequate bankroll
(Bones; you should know better)


[/ QUOTE ]

My 30 buyin downswing comment wasn't suggesting that 30 was adequate, just that everyone I know has experienced at least that. I've dropped 40 and there's absolutely no way I'd play with less than 75 at any time. But if I posted #s like that, the OP would simply laugh off my comments, because clearly he has no clue about normal variance in poker.

[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed. Anything less then 75 is gambooling. After losing 20-25 you should drop down until you have 75 again so that you never have less then 50 buyins at a given level.

Here's me: "Holy crap, I got a reply from SkipperBob!"
...
"dohhhhhh"

You scare me.

Thanks everyone for the insight and taking the time. I'll let you know how it's going. Even if, I mean when, I have to eat my own poop. I do have some natural talent at this believe it or not. We'll see where I'm at in a 6 mos/year.

thx again,
Matt

[SammyKid11]

[ QUOTE ]
We'll see where I'm at in a 6 mos/year.


[/ QUOTE ]

My guess is: pawning your mom's jewelry.

[ QUOTE ]
I do have some natural talent at this believe it or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

read a bio of stu ungar and see where natural talent without discipline will get you.

Will

[roundest]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I do have some natural talent at this believe it or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

read a bio of stu ungar and see where natural talent without discipline will get you.

Will

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. You wanna know where to start over? Because you lack discipline you should start at the 11s. With 50 buyins. Play 1000 of them. This will teach you more about sng's and poker than just how to play sng's and poker. And you need to know this stuff if you ever plan on playing for a living.

[Elektrik]

For personal reasons, I had to take out 9/10's of my bankroll and restart with only $3k. In order to accomodate this, I had to drop down levels to the $50's, which I haven't played in almost a year. In an unfortunate downswing my bankroll almost hit $1500, at which point I would have dropped down to the $30's.

There is no excuse, EVER, for losing your bankroll from variance in poker. You should never be playing at a level you don't have more than 30 buy ins for. I don't care about the run of beats or anything like that, with proper bankroll management and dropping down it should be statistically impossible for you to go broke if you are a winning player (Note: this is impossible with the lowest buy in of course or for a winning player by an incredibly small margin, but you get my point).

Bankroll management is a skill like any other in poker, and one that can be incredibly detrimental to your game if taken lightly. Do not underestimate it, or believe you can "cheat luck" by playing underbankrolled, that's the same thing as being a donk and calling with your inside straight draw because you might get away with it.

It's just bad poker.

[ QUOTE ]
My guess is: pawning your mom's jewelry.

[/ QUOTE ]

Apparently this is a lot of fun for some of you, and I hate to take away. But I do have a 6-figure day job, a side client, and a skill I can fall back on for contract work anytime I want. IE - poker aint the only stream coming in. Some of the posters seem to get that, most ignore it entirely. I think this puts me in a slightly different position, as far as risk tolerance, than say a 19 year old with no other income or skills. Risk tolerance is a pretty personal thing that only the individual in question is really equipped to assess.

Do I lack discipline and is that a concern to me? Yes. But there's more than one way to skin a cat. IMO anyway. Like I said I'm not too worried about going broke. You guys can have fun with it all you want.

[tigerite]

I also earn a healthy salary at my job, but if I want to do something, it's got to be done properly. Playing a game with 20 buy-ins does not come under that banner for me. But hey, it's your money at the end of the day.

[Melchiades]

Nobody has any problems with you risking your bankroll. If it was just a hobby that you liked spending some of your salary on. But you talk about quitting your job and somewhat relying on poker as an income. If you are going to do that proper bankroll managment is a must.

[roundest]

[ QUOTE ]
Apparently this is a lot of fun for some of you, and I hate to take away. But I do have a 6-figure day job, a side client, and a skill I can fall back on for contract work anytime I want. IE - poker aint the only stream coming in. Some of the posters seem to get that, most ignore it entirely. I think this puts me in a slightly different position, as far as risk tolerance, than say a 19 year old with no other income or skills. Risk tolerance is a pretty personal thing that only the individual in question is really equipped to assess.

Do I lack discipline and is that a concern to me? Yes. But there's more than one way to skin a cat. IMO anyway. Like I said I'm not too worried about going broke. You guys can have fun with it all you want.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't take this as a flame.

It's great that you have the job to fall back on and that no matter what happens with poker, you will have a means of making a decent living. The thing is, you don't want the job. You want to be a professional poker player. That's going to require discipline in terms of bankroll management regardless of what you have to fall back on.

Yes, risk tolerance is a personal thing and it varies widely from person to person. The problem for many people who aspire to being professional poker players is that they have a risk tolerance that isn't conducive to making a living playing poker. I don't know how long someone can make it on a 20-30 buyin BR and I don't want to find out. You may be comfortable with a BR this size and that's fine as long as you understand that at some point, you will go broke.

You need to separate yourself from the fact that you have something to fall back on and concentrate only on what it is going to take to succeed as a poker player. If you go into this with the attitude that you don't really need to fight to keep your BR and scratch and claw to build it, there's a good chance that you'll keep ending up back at square one.

I guess that was my thinking with the 20 buy-ins. If it's just a gambling hobby, zero buy-ins. If it's a hybrid between a gambling hobby and a side source of income - maybe compromise at 20 buy-ins. But that may be warped thinking, we'll see.

I guess the question I was realy wondering, which I didn't phrase very well and kind of got lost in the shuffle, is this: if my goal is to get as good as I can as fast as I can, am I better served by swinging a heavier bat now against tougher competition, or refining my game and getting lots more reps at the lower levels? Assuming, at the moment, that I can financially tolerate the beatings against the tougher competition. I guess that was my dilema, assuming money is not the main issue, which will get me there faster?

I understand that if I ever really want to play for a living, BR management is vitally important. But I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's harder to get good at poker than to learn good BR mgmt. IE - that can come a little later. Maybe I'm off there, I dunno.

Basically, depends on your day job and how much you are willing to invest in "learning" (IE. playing hiher stakes). You should be playing with a BR of 40 Buy-ins I guess. That way you can really deal with that variance and see your true drift.. So I mean if you want to put $9000 and play $215s, you might as well... But I would try putting in like $1000 and playing $20s... But only play 20s, get SNG trancker. Keep stats... Pay Attention! That is important... Right now, like you said, you aren't playing poker. You are gambling..

I guess one last thing to mention is that I think in large part we're arguing over semantics here. If I have 20 buy-ins in my PS account, but I can always hit up my side job paycheck for another 20, then that's like 40, right? Until poker is my sole source of income, I will have that pool to dip into when I suffer the inevitable 30 buyin downswing. So can I think of that as part of my BR? If so, I guess this works as long as my side job still pays a decent proportion of my income. If I move up to the higher buyins then I will get a little more scared and start building up the BR way above 20. I promise.

[junkmail3]

suzzer,

You're saying you really dont' have bankroll limitations because you make so much at your day job.

So, play what you want to play. If you don't know basics and dropping $100 doesn't bother you, just play the $100s. Or whatever level they are ($119>?) at stars.

WTF cares?

Or just say that your bankroll is $20,000! You can reload whenever you want, so who cares.

Just gambol and set a limit for how much you feel comfortable losing. Play the d$119s and if you lose that much, either stop playing or break your limit and play more.

Poker is fun, but if I only played the play money tables, I would kill myself. Half of the fun of gamboling is the risk. (not a risk of ruin, but a risk of a portion of money that actually means something ... if not very much)

It's not so much about gamboooling as it is about playing the tougher competition. I know I'm holding my own on the $119s. I've put some moves on those guys and sniffed out moves by them. It's fun, it's a charge and I feel like I'm learning a lot more about how to play against tricky, tough players. But am I a winning player there? No. So that's that.

[sofere]

I'm not gonna comment on BR or anything like that because that's been covered to death. Besides if you have a 20 BB BR and are willing to reload w/ another 20 BBs after you bust out, then you really have a 40 BB BR.

As far as the best way to learn, I feel its best to go through the stages. Someone earlier said you're basically paying tuition by losing money. The question is whether your education is worth the money.

Like anything else, in order to learn the advanced concepts, you must learn the basics. If you take a normal person who has never learned any math above arithmatic, are they going to learn faster by taking a class in advanced differential equations five times, or by taking a class in algebra, then basic calculus, then introductory differential equations.

My advice, if you want to learn faster, beat the $27s (i don't think its so bad if you skip the $11s if you have the BR for it) for at a minimum 300 games, then beat the next level for a minimum of 400 games, then the next for 500 games.

If you play in the levels with "tricky" players who will continuation bets with air...you won't learn from them unless you get the basics and then understand why they would make those types of bets. Or even more so if it was even a good play.

[zipppy]

[ QUOTE ]
It's not so much about gamboooling as it is about playing the tougher competition. I know I'm holding my own on the $119s. I've put some moves on those guys and sniffed out moves by them. It's fun, it's a charge and I feel like I'm learning a lot more about how to play against tricky, tough players. But am I a winning player there? No. So that's that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you want to be a winning player at higher levels? If not, then playing them to occassionally "put some moves" on the regulars is fine.

If you want to be a winner at these levels, I'm pretty sure being tricky isn't the key to success.

[Eder]

[ QUOTE ]
It's not so much about gamboooling as it is about playing the tougher competition. [/quote

Rule#1...dont ever play without an edge...(Play against fish...seeking out tougher competition is just wrong)

btw am I the only guy that kept 100 buy ins minimum?

[tigerite]

No Eder, you are not. (See my post above)

[1C5]

[ QUOTE ]
No Eder, you are not. (See my post above)

[/ QUOTE ]

I like to keep 100 + also.

Have 240 in my account now.

[tigerite]

Move up /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ QUOTE ]
My advice, if you want to learn faster, beat the $27s (i don't think its so bad if you skip the $11s if you have the BR for it) for at a minimum 300 games, then beat the next level for a minimum of 400 games, then the next for 500 games.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks sofere, that sounds like a doable plan that takes my situation into account.

FWIW - I am eternally grateful for this thread, eating my own poop and all. If nothing else it's really helped me define what it is I'm trying to do and how I should be going about it. Thanks everyone for taking the time to weigh in, that's really what this board is about. I hope I can contribute enough going forward to pay it back.

-Matt