It's too quiet in here....

[krishanleong]

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (9 max, 4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (4 SB) A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

Turn: (3 BB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

River: (5 BB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks...

Villian is 2+2 taggy.

Krishan

I fold preflop, even 4-handed.

I would either fold or just complete, unless this BB is folding a substantial amount of the time. I also don't think I would bet the turn again, but given that you did, I think the river is a great card, and justifies another bet. If he had the flush draw you would have been semi-bluff raised somewhere. Even if he is slowplaying, that 3rd flush card gives him less incentive to raise you, and since it is HU, I would call even if raised (I also would really want to know what he could possibly have to make him take a line like this if he is indeed TAG).

I assume its check fold?

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
I assume its check fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand what you are saying.

Krishan

[Lmn55d]

I'd bet river because I'm not confident villain will bet a Q or 9 on the river. If he does there's a good chance he'll bet fold. Also I don't think there's many draws he will have to bluff.

Did you consider check/folding the turn? I know it sounds really weak and I probably would bet as well. However, most guys 3bet JK preflop so we can rule that out I think. TK gets 3bet a lot too so that should be discounted. I think very few TAGs in that game can resist raising the flop with an OESD or flush draw. If they don't it is probably b/c they are raising the turn where you will be bet/folding I assume.

So basically you're hoping villain has a gutshot draw but these raise the flop sometimes. The Q9 flop means there are a lot of these though: 8T, TK (discounted), 8J. I think this guy has a Q or a better nine a LOT here.

I would probably bet the turn as well and check/folding might be pretty exploitable, but how close do you think this is to a checkfold?

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
Even if he is slowplaying, that 3rd flush card gives him less incentive to raise you, and since it is HU, I would call even if raised (I also would really want to know what he could possibly have to make him take a line like this if he is indeed TAG).

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you think I'm checking the river?

Krishan

[Victor]

i would bet bc he will call you with any q or 9 and he wont bet those. hell, he might not even bet an ace.

[Lmn55d]

if he's any sort of tag I think its very unlikely he doesn't bet an ace

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I assume its check fold?

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I don't understand what you are saying.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]
Well I dont see many hands you are beating on the river. So I assumed you gave up by checking.

[TStoneMBD]

hi krishan. i fold this preflop against a good tag.

the turn situation is beyond my understanding. i think its a very complicated spot.

i dont like the river check. i dont think your hand is strong enough to checkraise. bet and let him pay you off with a queen or whatever hes got.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd bet river because I'm not confident villain will bet a Q or 9 on the river. If he does there's a good chance he'll bet fold. Also I don't think there's many draws he will have to bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

He did fold. But I thought he would call with a Q or weak ace.

[ QUOTE ]

Did you consider check/folding the turn? I know it sounds really weak and I probably would bet as well. However, most guys 3bet JK preflop so we can rule that out I think. TK gets 3bet a lot too so that should be discounted. I think very few TAGs in that game can resist raising the flop with an OESD or flush draw. If they don't it is probably b/c they are raising the turn where you will be bet/folding I assume.

So basically you're hoping villain has a gutshot draw but these raise the flop sometimes. The Q9 flop means there are a lot of these though: 8T, TK (discounted), 8J. I think this guy has a Q or a better nine a LOT here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you are right. He will have a Q or 9 here a lot but I didn't think this guy was going to punish me with a raise. After all it's an ace high flop and the wussball mentality around here is to get to showdown at all costs. Plus just calling straight down isn't a horrible line/prevents bad folds etc...

[ QUOTE ]

I would probably bet the turn as well and check/folding might be pretty exploitable, but how close do you think this is to a checkfold?

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It's close. I don't mind a turn check fold. I tend to screwplay quite a bit (and on my coaches request, I'm trying to increase) so this turn will go check raise at least as often as it will go check fold.

Krishan

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
hi krishan. i fold this preflop against a good tag.

the turn situation is beyond my understanding. i think its a very complicated spot.

i dont like the river check. i dont think your hand is strong enough to checkraise. bet and let him pay you off with a queen or whatever hes got.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm. I agree with everything Tstone said. Maybe he's not so bad at poker after all.

oups, didnt see that you hit a two-pair on the river. ignore everything I have said.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
i dont like the river check. i dont think your hand is strong enough to checkraise. bet and let him pay you off with a queen or whatever hes got.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure about the rest but I'm sure my hand is strong enough to check raise the river with. What exactly do I have to be afraid of? A badly played flush is it as far as I can see. (Outside chance of a 2 pair including the 7 both because I have one and also because the flush might protect me from being 3-bet anyway)

Krishan

[27offsooot]

You're going for the c/r right?
I would expect him to have raised the flop or the turn with the FD, so u have to assume u're still ahead.

If so, I don't like this line on this board. I think villain has a weak, SD worthy hand as he just called the flop and turn. I think he will always call a bet here, but won't bet some of these hands (9s, maybe weak queens) and prob won't pay off a c/r. Also, ur line looks like u're going to call his bet, so i think that he might only bet his stronger queens and aces, which i think he has less of the time. He won't bet 9s and i honestly don't think he will bet- bluff here as i don't know what hand he could have that isn't a pair and thinks u will fold a better no pair hand.

I think that he may bluff-raise this river more than he will bet bluff as the folding equity would be higher and ur check seems to be with the intention of calling. So I would bet and call a raise.

Edit- sorry, i took a lot of time to write this, when i first clicked there were two responses. Now a lot i had to say had already been said. I do think that u're hand is strong enough to c/r with.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i dont like the river check. i dont think your hand is strong enough to checkraise. bet and let him pay you off with a queen or whatever hes got.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure about the rest but I'm sure my hand is strong enough to check raise the river with. What exactly do I have to be afraid of? A badly played flush is it as far as I can see. (Outside chance of a 2 pair including the 7 both because I have one and also because the flush might protect me from being 3-bet anyway)

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

Most of the time, given how he's played the hand, I don't see him calling the c/r but I can see him calling a normal bet a lot. When he calls the c/r I don't know that your hand will be good &gt; 50% of the time. Given how weakly he has played the hand I don't think he'll bluff or value bet the river nearly as often as he'll call.

Rob

[TStoneMBD]

i shouldnt have used the term not strong enough cause thats not true. its really unlikely the opponent has a better twopair unless he hit a 7 kicker since hes just called both streets. i dont like the river checkraise more or less because the board is scary and i think alot of pairs check down when they would have called. its hard to see him having an ace here but a queen is likely. i suppose a queen will often bet but a 2p2 tag should strongly be considering folding to the river checkraise. btw a flush is a real possibility.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure about the rest but I'm sure my hand is strong enough to check raise the river with. What exactly do I have to be afraid of? A badly played flush is it as far as I can see. (Outside chance of a 2 pair including the 7 both because I have one and also because the flush might protect me from being 3-bet anyway)

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

Most of the time, given how he's played the hand, I don't see him calling the c/r but I can see him calling a normal bet a lot. When he calls the c/r I don't know that your hand will be good &gt; 50% of the time. Given how weakly he has played the hand I don't think he'll bluff or value bet the river nearly as often as he'll call.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, what hands beat me? Both you and TStone said this and it didn't occur to me. Can you spell it out for me? I figured I was ahead by a huge amount.

Krishan

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
i would bet bc he will call you with any q or 9 and he wont bet those. hell, he might not even bet an ace.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? I bet an ace and call a raise(most of the time) all day in his shoes. I would definitely value bet a good Q there too.

I think everyone who says I should just lead the river is right mostly because I don't think a cr is getting called all that often.

Krishan

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure about the rest but I'm sure my hand is strong enough to check raise the river with. What exactly do I have to be afraid of? A badly played flush is it as far as I can see. (Outside chance of a 2 pair including the 7 both because I have one and also because the flush might protect me from being 3-bet anyway)

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

Most of the time, given how he's played the hand, I don't see him calling the c/r but I can see him calling a normal bet a lot. When he calls the c/r I don't know that your hand will be good &gt; 50% of the time. Given how weakly he has played the hand I don't think he'll bluff or value bet the river nearly as often as he'll call.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, what hands beat me? Both you and TStone said this and it didn't occur to me. Can you spell it out for me? I figured I was ahead by a huge amount.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you are ahead by a huge amount. But I think there are a ton of hands that will check behind when you check, few hands that will bluff given how passively he has played the hand so far, and if you get 2 bets in on the river, I don't think your hand is going to be good very often. Does that make more sense? I think you've got the best hand a fair % of the time here when you bet and are called, but when you c/r and are called, I think that # goes down significantly. I just don't see Q5o betting this river and paying a c/r off very often at all.

Rob

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you are ahead by a huge amount. But I think there are a ton of hands that will check behind when you check, few hands that will bluff given how passively he has played the hand so far, and if you get 2 bets in on the river, I don't think your hand is going to be good very often. Does that make more sense? I think you've got the best hand a fair % of the time here when you bet and are called, but when you c/r and are called, I think that # goes down significantly. I just don't see Q5o betting this river and paying a c/r off very often at all.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, I understand that you don't think my check raise will be called very often. But that doesn't mean I won't be good very often when it is called necessarily. I just can't read this guy into a flush and the only 2 pair combination I'll can see is Q7.

Krishan

[Entity]

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[ QUOTE ]
I think you are ahead by a huge amount. But I think there are a ton of hands that will check behind when you check, few hands that will bluff given how passively he has played the hand so far, and if you get 2 bets in on the river, I don't think your hand is going to be good very often. Does that make more sense? I think you've got the best hand a fair % of the time here when you bet and are called, but when you c/r and are called, I think that # goes down significantly. I just don't see Q5o betting this river and paying a c/r off very often at all.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, I understand that you don't think my check raise will be called very often. But that doesn't mean I won't be good very often when it is called necessarily. I just can't read this guy into a flush and the only 2 pair combination I'll can see is Q7.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

What hands do you think he'd play this way that he'd call with your c/r with that your hand is good against? Do you think they're 2x as likely as hands that he'd call a bet with?

It's pretty hard to put him on a hand since he played it so passively, but I def. def. think a bet is better than a c/r (and I normally /images/graemlins/heart.gif river c/r's).

Rob

[baronzeus]

I like it if you are check-raising the river and folding to a 3bet.


Edit: Check-raising is clearly better than betting. He will call your check-raise with any A or Q probably, and busted draws that try to bluff will pay 1 bet rather than 0.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
I like it if you are check-raising the river and folding to a 3bet.


Edit: Check-raising is clearly better than betting. He will call your check-raise with any A or Q probably, and busted draws that try to bluff will pay 1 bet rather than 0.

[/ QUOTE ]

There aren't that many busted draws, and IMO you've been running v. v. hot if you've been getting a river c/r paid off with Qx by a TAG after you raised preflop, bet flop and turn on an AQ9x board, and checkraised the river when the flush draw arrived. Given how passively the TAG has played so far -- especially given krishan's insistence that he's a "good" TAG -- there's no way checkraising is "obviously" better than betting. I agree that Ax pays off but I don't think he has Ax here very often at all given how the hand played out.

Rob

[Surfbullet]

I agree with others, this river is going to get checked through alot when villain should be calling a bet because even TAGs don't fold a medium pair despite the board getting dangerous.

The c/r is sweet when it happens but i don't think he'll bet-call often enough. If you are bet-calling a Q or weak ace here I think that's a leak IMO.

Surf

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
I like it if you are check-raising the river and folding to a 3bet.


Edit: Check-raising is clearly better than betting. He will call your check-raise with any A or Q probably, and busted draws that try to bluff will pay 1 bet rather than 0.

[/ QUOTE ]


busted draws are likely to have semi-bluffed. if you call you will get paid by a pair. if you c/r, a pair might not bet and unless we're beat a c/r isn't getting paid off. c/r'ing seems pretty bad to me

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
unless we're beat a c/r isn't getting paid off.

[/ QUOTE ]


Maybe I'm wrong about this one. But I feel like the statement above isn't true--any A or Q will pay me off (usually) because they have no idea what's going on.

[sthief09]

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unless we're beat a c/r isn't getting paid off.

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Maybe I'm wrong about this one. But I feel like the statement above isn't true--any A or Q will pay me off (usually) because they have no idea what's going on.

[/ QUOTE ]


i think its rare that someone flops top pair headsup and doesnt raise the flop or turn. i dont think a Q pays off very often at all

[baronzeus]

Yeah, and after reading all of Krishan's insistances that villain is a good TAG I think he will bet here but not call a c/r often, unless Krishan is wrong.

[climber]

Sorry for the hi-jack

Josh is your PM box full?
I PMed you like two days ago for the coaches listing but haven't heard anything from you...mind sending it my way?
thx

[climber]

In this kind of blind steal scenario If he is a good TAG he defends a lot and I dont raise with 97o out of the SB.

Also in this kind of blind steal scenario If he is a good TAG and has a hand he will bet the river with when checked to I think you will see some more action from him on the flop or turn unless he has some kind ofa read that you are a bet spewing machine and he is already ahead or has a nice flush draw or something. Given that there was no earlier action form him I just bet the river cause I don't think he will bet when checked to.

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]

i think its rare that someone flops top pair headsup and doesnt raise the flop or turn. i dont think a Q pays off very often at all

[/ QUOTE ]

does he usually raise the flop or the turn here? which one would you raise if had a weak A? How about a FD? Assume you know you are playing krishan.