Another hand like the one I just discussed

[Your Mom]

This hand is damn close to the one I just posted.

2 limpers to me, I bump it with KQs (sound familiar?), both the limpers call. Flop comes 589, two of my suit. Checked to me, I bet, they both call. Turn comes a King, two flush draws on board. Checked to me, I bet my top pair, flush draw and get raised by first limper. Second limper coldcalls, and I 3bet as recommended. First limper caps, we both call. River brings a queen giving me top 2. First limper bets, second limper folds, and I call.
What do you think of my play this time with a third player and who won this hand?

[rkiray]

I might limp with KQs, it depends on what position I'm in. If I'm the co or B-2, I'd probably raise to try to buy the button. In earlier position, I'd probably just call. You didn't describe the game either. If it's a loose game with lots of bad players I would think your good. In a tougher game, I would think you are beat.

[Your Mom]

It is Party 2/4. Mostly loose, passive, and stupid. Perfect game.

[mobes]

I like your play here and Im hoping that you beat K9 and didnt lose to a set....but since you are posting it....

[rkiray]

OK, then I think you win.

[Your Mom]

You think he limped in EP with K9? Oh, no. He limped in with the monster 67o for the flopped straight. Plays like this have me up 42 BB in the past 2 hours. God, I love it.

[JTG51]

Just one note, 3-betting the turn wasn't unanimous in the last hand. Majorkong made a good argument against it, good enough that even though I was the first one to suggest the turn 3-bet, I'm at least rethinking that.

[elysium]

hi your
sounds like you lost to a set or straight. you played it well though. call the river and hope you are against two pair, but i don't think so.

[Your Mom]

Just one note, 3-betting the turn wasn't unanimous in the last hand. Majorkong made a good argument against it, good enough that even though I was the first one to suggest the turn 3-bet, I'm at least rethinking that.

I can see both sides of it - this time I thought I'd try the 3bet. Too bad I caught my kicker on the wrong hand.

[J.R.]

I have debated this for some time and this is my current take on this issue. I see the raise on the turn with outs arising in two scenarios.

Scenario #1

You have something like JTs in LP. Everyone limps preflop, the flop comes J high, an early player bets, you call. On the turn you pick up a flush or straight redraw, and the same early player bets again. I think it is correct to raise here, as:

1) you may have the best hand, so you will call on the river, so by raising it costs you the same as calling the turn and river, assuming your opponent does not three bet the turn,

2) your opponent has done nothing but bet into players who have shown no strength, so there is no information to indicate you opponent has a 3-betting hand or is likely to do so, and

3) you can pick up an extra bet on the river when you do improve that you might not have gotten in the absence of the turn raise, because your opponent is not likely to suspect you hit your re-draw and will often call your river bet. This of course assumes you opponent would fold to you river raise if you had just called the turn. While it might be more obvious that you had hit your draw if you called the turn then raised the river, I still think there are plenty of opponents who would call the river raise. Nonetheless, there is some chance that your opponent may fold a better hand on the turn and the turn raise adds deception to your game and asserts yourself as an aggressive player. I believe tricky players tend to get less out of line against aggressive players, so perhaps your future reads become easier.

Scenario # 2

You raise pre-flop, bet the flop holding top pair, good kicker. On the turn you pick up a flush or straight redraw, bet and get check-raised. In contrast to the situation in Scenario #1:

1) you are less likely to have the best hand because the turn check-raise of a pre-flop raiser is a far stronger move than simply betting from early position into players that have shown no strength,

2) you are more likely to be 4-bet if you 3-bet than in Scenario # 1, and

3) unlike in Scenario # 1, you are unlikely to be calling a river bet absent improvement.

Much of the value in Scenario #1 is the added deception with little risk and the greater certainty that you will be paid off when your redraw hits, in addition to the fact that there is still a good chance you are ahead and will be calling the river anyway. I have found that folding to turn check-raises at the low limits is generally the best play to make unless I have a redraw because I am often behind (unless I have specific knowledge that the player gets out of line). Because I am more likely to be re-raised and far less likely to have the best hand in Scenario # 2, the benefits of the raise in Scenario # 1 are far less prevalent in Scenario # 2, especially since I am unlikely to be calling on the river in Scenario # 2 in the absence of improvement.

[Your Mom]

JR- Good post. I appreciate your thoughts.

[FishyWhale]

I don´t like the 3-bet: You are most likely behind, are only 4.11-to-1 to hit your flush but you have to call because of that if he raises (which I might do with just two pair because with that board, the only hand that you can have that beats two pair is a set of kings, maybe a set of nines), so you lose not one but two more big bets than necessary.

[anatta]

I didn't like the reraise on the previous hand and I don't like it now. His check-raise on the turn can be three things, a slowplayed monster, an improved made hand (2 pair), or a move like middle pair and a turned flush draw. Bad players slowplay a lot. Even though you wouldn't do it and the play is wrong, you make it right by giving them excessive action like this.

Three betting for a "free" showdown obviously won't work if he is slowplaying. It may not work if he has two pair. He might 4 bet you. I would. He might bet out on a safe river card.

When there is another player in the pot, it is much less likely the check-raiser is making a move. More likely, he would just bet out on the turn if he wanted to do this. Even if your opponent is making a move, you can call and he may bluff the river for you. If he hits his draw after you three-bet, you lose more.

[Ed Miller]

This is exactly the reason why the 3-bet should not be automatic here. You should try to put your opponent on a hand before you go slinging chips in this spot. On the coordinated board like that, I'd be severely concerned about the flopped straight when the action went check-call, check-raise. Of course, the flopped straight will almost always go ahead and 4-bet you when you 3-bet... which sucks for you.

[AceHigh]

The problem with scenario #1 is when you raise is you can't fold to a 3-bet because of your redraws. As Your Mom found out in this hand. So I think there has to be a pretty decent chance your hand is best when you make this raise. So I would be more inclined to make this play against a loose or aggressive player or with a hand like AJs or KJs than JTs.