So I'm the chip leader...SB playalong

[macdaddy991]

5$ MTT, I have just transfered to a new table, so reads are limited. At this point in the tournament, I am the chip leader. I would like to keep it this way.

Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 10
<font color="blue">Seat 1: amiller03431 ( $18504 )</font>
<font color="blue"> Seat 2: BOUTTHAT111 ( $31840 )</font>
Seat 3: rogerston ( $52848 )
Seat 5: Hero ( $70718 )
Seat 6: sconova ( $36842 )
Seat 7: welder39 ( $41981 )
Seat 10: The_McNasty ( $14718 )
Seat 4: ziggy830 ( $36397 )
Seat 8: spinnochio ( $18354 )
Seat 9: ozziner8 ( $14923 )
Trny:18242073 Level:13
Blinds (750/1500)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero A/images/graemlins/spade.gif T/images/graemlins/spade.gif
welder39 folds.
spinnochio folds.
ozziner8 folds.
The_McNasty folds.
<font color="red"> amiller03431 raises [3000].</font>
<font color="green"> BOUTTHAT111 calls [3000].</font>
rogerston folds.
<font color="green">ziggy830 calls [3000].</font>
<font color="green"> Hero calls (small blind)[2250].</font>
sconova folds.

<font color="blue"> Pot 13,500</font>
** Dealing Flop ** [ A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif ]
Hero?

[FUpaymee]

edit: never mind, misread the post...hero is in SB

[macdaddy991]

[ QUOTE ]
what is the action to you after the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am first to act in the SB

[FUpaymee]

Since this is a $5 party MTT, any number of hands could have called the min raise preflop, and I doubt any of them were AK. I'd be a little worried about AJ and possibly AQ, but I'd throw a decent sized bet out there and just tread carefully from here on out. Odds are you probably have the best hand, but you gotta protect it from straight draws so I wouldn't check. If someone re-raises you, depending on your read of the player and the size of his stack, I'd either call or push.

[jcm4ccc]

Luckily the board has no real draws on it, so if you are ahead now, the chances are great that you will be ahead on the river, even if everybody stays in the hand.

The preflop action is a little worrisome. I would check this hand and see what develops. The nice thing is that the preflop raiser is the short stack. He is likely to push this flop. If he pushes and everybody else folds, I would certainly call. If everybody checks and the button bets, I might push. If BOUTTHAT111 bets, I don't know what I'm doing. Depends on the size of the bet, I guess.

[stevepa]

[ QUOTE ]
Odds are you probably have the best hand, but you gotta protect it from straight draws so I wouldn't check.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you have to protect it from straight draws? KQ is dead, KT, QT are unlikely and have 4 outs. I don't mind giving them free cards.

I check the flop, probably check-raising. The pot is pretty huge so any bet is going to represent a large percentage of the players stack. Hopefully someone commits themselves with KK, QQ, TT or some kind of jack. I don't particularly like betting, because if you bet and the min-raiser pushes, it lets the bigger stacks fold hands like KJ-JT. Also, if the min-raiser checks, there's a reasonable chance one of the other two players takes a shot at the pot.

Don't worry about being behind here, if you are then you lose all your chips. Worry about maximizing your win against hands that can pay you off like pocket pairs, jacks and weaker aces.

Steve

[jcm4ccc]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't worry about being behind here

[/ QUOTE ] I think you do need to worry about being behind. You had a raiser and two callers (even though it was a min-raise, it was still a substantial portion of their chips). Playing AT like you have the nuts is just donking away chips, I think. You need to tread carefully. Check the hand, assess the situation, play some poker.

easy check and wait for CB from original raiser. i definitely call anything with this hand simply because the odds say he doesn't have the other A (although we know this happens so often). Orginial raiser doesn't have a big enough stack to scare me off and its always possible if he has AK or AQ that i can still hit a few of my outs (i.e. the T's or another pair hits board). You have him covered and you just flopped a set. Check and wait for the action. If everyone checks. I lead the turn for 1/2 pot.

[jcm4ccc]

Actually, I think I would have pushed preflop. A lot of chips are on the table, and nobody seems to love their hand. Even the short stack will have 10BBs if he folds. The other two will definitely need a good hand to call you. Wield that big stack.

[macdaddy991]

[ QUOTE ]
5$ MTT, I have just transfered to a new table, so reads are limited. At this point in the tournament, I am the chip leader. I would like to keep it this way.

Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 10
<font color="blue">Seat 1: amiller03431 ( $18504 )</font>
<font color="blue"> Seat 2: BOUTTHAT111 ( $31840 )</font>
Seat 3: rogerston ( $52848 )
Seat 5: Hero ( $70718 )
Seat 6: sconova ( $36842 )
Seat 7: welder39 ( $41981 )
Seat 10: The_McNasty ( $14718 )
Seat 4: ziggy830 ( $36397 )
Seat 8: spinnochio ( $18354 )
Seat 9: ozziner8 ( $14923 )
Trny:18242073 Level:13
Blinds (750/1500)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero A/images/graemlins/spade.gif T/images/graemlins/spade.gif
welder39 folds.
spinnochio folds.
ozziner8 folds.
The_McNasty folds.
<font color="red"> amiller03431 raises [3000].</font>
<font color="green"> BOUTTHAT111 calls [3000].</font>
rogerston folds.
<font color="green">ziggy830 calls [3000].</font>
<font color="green"> Hero calls (small blind)[2250].</font>
sconova folds.

<font color="blue"> Pot 13,500</font>
** Dealing Flop ** [ A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif ]
Hero?

[/ QUOTE ]

I checked because I wanted the short stack to go all in. This way, I could protect my hand with his bet and also close the action. Unfortunately the small stack didn't cooperate.

Hero checks.
<font color="red"> amiller03431 bets [1500].</font>
<font color="green"> BOUTTHAT111 is all-In [28840]</font>
ziggy830 folds.
Hero ? <font color="blue"> Pot 43840 </font>

[Vavavoom]

I call but you will be shown JJ...

I would have re-raised the minimum pre-flop just to make the others nervous (CL sits down in SB and re-raises a busy pot).
Amiller might have a hand but surely Boutthat isn't going all in if he's got you beat. I mean, what's he trying to protect? If he's got AJ or JJ he's surely going to call and keep you in the pot. If he's got AK, he's surely got to re-raise pre-flop and so the only hand that scares me is AQ.
As Doyle says, I'm not going to second guess myself here, especially when a beat doesn't leave me crippled so for me it's an instacall.
I presume, by the fact that you've posted that he did have you beat. That's poker!

[Shillx]

I'll go out on a limb and say...hero calls.

You are ~50/50 against Ax and JJ. Sometimes he will have far less then this though. With all the money already in the middle + the fact that you are a significant favorite, how is this not an instacall?

How is this even close? Call and become a fatter chip leader. I can't believe some of you guys believe you'll be shown AK, AQ, AJ, or JJ often enough to consider a fold.

[stokken]

Pf fold, ATs needs to hit big to be playable out of position, it just doesnt enough. Wait for a better situation to exploit your big stack.

As this hand shows, even when hitting like this you cant be sure that you are best.

With the variouss levels of players in these tournaments I wouldnt totally disregard someone pushing with the nuts.

Also alot of players will push any pp here either knowing that they are less likely to be up against an A or repping it or simply because they like to push making plays.

Anyways you are all the wiser out of position.
Without reads it is harder to make ranges, donks would push A2 and call for 3k pf with it too. KK-QQ if overly agressive might. TT-55 too.

Sometimes it is worth sitting back and evaluate. Why risk so much with sofar so little invested in the pot. Logic deduction in these is few and far apart, every body seems to be hyperagressive. Fold and play to your strenghts in position.

But what do I know Stokken

[stevepa]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Don't worry about being behind here

[/ QUOTE ] I think you do need to worry about being behind. You had a raiser and two callers (even though it was a min-raise, it was still a substantial portion of their chips). Playing AT like you have the nuts is just donking away chips, I think. You need to tread carefully. Check the hand, assess the situation, play some poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't mean don't worry about being behind because you're never beat. I mean the pot's big enough that if you're beat, you're losing all your chips. So don't worry about it. Similarly, if a guy has a worse ace, you're getting all his chips, so don't worry much about that either. Like I said in my original post, you should be worrying about the hands they can have where it matters what you do (didn't strassa make a big post about this once?).

As for the flop action, call. You're behind sometimes, but not nearly often enough to fold against normal party players.

Steve

[jcm4ccc]

[ QUOTE ]
How is this even close? Call and become a fatter chip leader. I can't believe some of you guys believe you'll be shown AK, AQ, AJ, or JJ often enough to consider a fold.

[/ QUOTE ] Jesus Christ, you think AK, AQ, AJ, and JJ are that uncommon? You have 3 other people seeing the flop. The person who is betting this is the person you should be most scared about. The initial raiser may have been trying for a steal (and is also short-stacked). The button may have been playing position. The MP was not playing position. He is betting all-in before the button even plays. He is betting when he knows there's a good chance the short stack will look him up.

There are no draws on the board. At the least, MP has an Ace. What are you hoping for? A9? A8? Good luck. I'm folding this piece of crap.

Here was my initial comment before the flop was posted:

[ QUOTE ]

The preflop action is a little worrisome. I would check this hand and see what develops. The nice thing is that the preflop raiser is the short stack. He is likely to push this flop. If he pushes and everybody else folds, I would certainly call. If everybody checks and the button bets, I might push. If BOUTTHAT111 bets, I don't know what I'm doing. Depends on the size of the bet, I guess.

[/ QUOTE ]

I stand by this assessment. Fold.

[ QUOTE ]
Since this is a $5 party MTT,

[/ QUOTE ]

Insta call.

[MrBrightside]

I have a question.. do you not think the MP makes this same play with a A9, A8, JK, JQ, or small PP often enough to make it profitable? For the record, I would call. even if we lose, we have a good stack, and I think there is a decent chance the MP is putting a move on the shortie with these hands hoping he goes away (the shortie would still have 10 bb, so it's not like he's completely committed).

I don't understand this at all.
You're chip leader, it's minimal cost to see a flop with what could end up being a nut hand, very cheaply. The worst that can happen pre-flop is that the BB raises everybody else in which case you've lost a few thousand chips. So I call.
There are two opponents to worry about and only one of them can have the last ace. It seems to me, as I explained elsewhere, that the guy who's gone all in would be very unlikely to have AJ or JJ. I can't see why he would want to close me out if he did so the worry is the first to act. He's covered by the all in anyway. If he puts all his chips in too, he's probably got the best hand but you still get the remainder of the second guy's chips, leaving you almost square.
The all-in may have AQ - again I think AK unlikely because of his pre-flop call.

[ QUOTE ]
The worst that can happen pre-flop is that the BB raises everybody else in which case you've lost a few thousand chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

the worst that can happen POSTFLOP is you go broke because you played this hand preflop and HIT. That being said, I agree with all that you said and as I stated, I call ANYTHING, knowing that my "tourny life" is not on the line because i have him/them covered and you do have a few outs if he is WA.

[MrMoo]

Amiller could have about anything. His 2x BB preflop raise and min bet of the flop is either a monster or nothing. And I'd say that it's much more likely it's nothing.

Boutthat's preflop call gives him a pretty wide range. It's 2x BB to call. His flop push doesn't really narrow down his hand range that much. He probably think's hero came along because it was a big pot and he could see the flop relatively cheap. He could be pushing a wide range here including under pairs.

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
499,075,780 games 222.229 secs 2,245,772 games/sec

Board: Ad Ah Jc
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 55.8090 % 47.73% 08.07% { AsTs }
Hand 2: 14.1190 % 11.40% 02.72% { 55+, A6s+, KJs+, A8o+, KJo+ }
Hand 3: 19.8196 % 15.92% 03.90% { 77+, A6s+, KJs, A9o+, KJo }
Hand 4: 10.2524 % 08.80% 01.46% { 22+, A6s+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, A9o+, KJo+ }
</pre><hr />

I don't even see how it's close or how you possibly recommend folding. You could tighted up BOUTTHAT's range even more and you're still ahead.

I would have pushed preflop because I am the bigstack and nobody seems too interested.

I would have led the flop to build it up.

I would have called BOUTTHAT's push. And even if he happens to have AK,AQ,AJ,JJ I still have 3 outs.

[ QUOTE ]


I would have called BOUTTHAT's push. And even if he happens to have AK,AQ,AJ,JJ I still have 3 outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

you do not have 3 outs against an AJ hand (he already has boat), you need runner runner KK or QQ. you have 1/82 of an out (8 cards out of 45 to hit 1st runner &amp; 3 cards out of 44 to hit 2nd runner). otherwise i agree, you can't fold this hand.

Boutthat just overbet the pot when the only draw out is a gutshot. It's more likely that Boutthat has a pocket pair besides JJ or is bluffing. You would overbet AK if you were Boutthat? This is a call. Without reads, it isn't close.

[jcm4ccc]

[ QUOTE ]

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
499,075,780 games 222.229 secs 2,245,772 games/sec

Board: Ad Ah Jc
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 55.8090 % 47.73% 08.07% { AsTs }
Hand 2: 14.1190 % 11.40% 02.72% { 55+, A6s+, KJs+, A8o+, KJo+ }
Hand 3: 19.8196 % 15.92% 03.90% { 77+, A6s+, KJs, A9o+, KJo }
Hand 4: 10.2524 % 08.80% 01.46% { 22+, A6s+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, A9o+, KJo+ }
</pre><hr />



[/ QUOTE ]

These ranges are remarkable.

It would be an incredibly donkish play (even more donkish than the normal donkey plays you see at these tournaments) for MP to push without an Ace or a pair of Jacks. Look at it from his point of view. If he doesn't have an Ace (or Jacks) in his hand, that means that there are 2 aces still out. People often slowplay hands like this if they have the Ace, so he cannot count out you, or the preflop raiser, or the button. If he is bluffing for all of his chips, it has to be one of the stupidest bluffs I've ever seen.

it's a mistake to assume that donkeys just play bad in a random sort of way. I don't see donkeys pushing for all of their chips in this situation. This guy thinks he has the best hand. So you have to hope that he would play A9 or A8 or A7 this way. Otherwise, you are sunk.

When donkeys have an Ace with a weak kicker, they tend to check or call the flop. They are not playing it this aggressive. They call to the river hoping that their hand will hold up.

Pretend you're BOUTTHAT and you hold Ax. What's your default line when PFR minibets postflop?

Villain isn't going to usually push an Ace. This is Party. Have you ever played in the 109s?

[jcm4ccc]

[ QUOTE ]
Pretend you're BOUTTHAT and you hold Ax. What's your default line when PFR minibets postflop?

Villain isn't going to usually push an Ace. This is Party. Have you ever played in the 109s?

[/ QUOTE ] I'm not saying that I would play it the same as BOUTTHAT. There is NO hand that I am pushing that hard on the flop, given this board. Nonetheless, looking at the betting patterns and the chip stacks and the cards on the board and the preflop action, I believe that he believes he has the best hand. And the only way that he believes that is if he has an Ace or pair of Jacks.

This is futile. I hope someone else w/ more credibility than myself steps in and tries to convince you that, barring reads, it's a call.

[jcm4ccc]

[ QUOTE ]
This is futile. I hope someone else w/ more credibility than myself steps in and tries to convince you that, barring reads, it's a call.

[/ QUOTE ] We'll see. I will certainly look like an ass if this guy is bluffing or pushing crap.

[jcm4ccc]

[ QUOTE ]
This is futile. I hope someone else w/ more credibility than myself steps in and tries to convince you that, barring reads, it's a call.

[/ QUOTE ] I would like to see that, too. Believe it or not, I am open to the idea that I might be wrong, and posters that I really respect could convince me of that, I think (no disrespect meant to you or anyone else in this thread -- I'm just not as familiar with the people who have posted in this thread so far).

if the really experienced guys say that I am an idiot, I will defer to their expertise and re-evaluate my weak-tightness. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

You'll see what? If OP shows you results? Villain in this hand almost certainly has AK, AQ, AJ, or JJ simply because it was posted in this forum. What motivation does macdaddy991 have to post this hand? 1) He either folded, and was wondering if it was the correct fold, 2) He called, and was wondering if it was the correct call, because he was shown a better hand and lost, or 3) He was contemplating a fold, called anyways, was shown a worse hand. However, since macdaddy991 didn't want to be results oriented, he questioned if this was a +EV call. You can't be results oriented. I never said that villain will never show up w/ AK, AQ, AJ, or JJ. But more often than not, Hero will be ahead. This call is most definitely +EV.

[jcm4ccc]

[ QUOTE ]
You'll see what? If OP shows you results? Villain in this hand almost certainly has AK, AQ, AJ, or JJ simply because it was posted in this forum. What motivation does macdaddy991 have to post this hand? 1) He either folded, and was wondering if it was the correct fold, 2) He called, and was wondering if it was the correct call, because he was shown a better hand and lost, or 3) He was contemplating a fold, called anyways, was shown a worse hand. However, since macdaddy991 didn't want to be results oriented, he questioned if this was a +EV call. You can't be results oriented. I never said that villain will never show up w/ AK, AQ, AJ, or JJ. But more often than not, Hero will be ahead. This call is most definitely +EV. Be thankful that I'm not Jason Strasser, cause I would've ripped you apart.

[/ QUOTE ] Wow, didn't mean to irritate you.

If Jason Strasser says I'm an idiot, then I will defer to his judgment. Good enough?

Yes, I suppose I was irritated. Let me edit my post.

[jcm4ccc]

[ QUOTE ]
You'll see what? If OP shows you results? Villain in this hand almost certainly has AK, AQ, AJ, or JJ simply because it was posted in this forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right about that. The results won't prove anything.

here's the thing I don't understand. Everybody (expect one person) is advocating calling this for half their stack. So why isn't anybody advocating leading out on the flop? Are all of you slowplaying it?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Since this is a $5 party MTT,

[/ QUOTE ]

Insta call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me elaborate on this a little more. If this were a higher buy in event, I think this would be a difficult decision. But given that it is arguably the donkiest donkfest of online MTT's, you absolutely have to call. As others have said, he doesn't go broke if he calls and loses and I think he gets shown Ax (x&lt;=T) by the all-in guy far too often to argue for a fold. All-in guy may not believe that he has the best hand, but he certainly hopes that he does. I have even seen this play with a hand like KK when there were 2 Aces on board. It's like they just pray that it's best and go with it. What if all-in guy does have AK, AQ, AJ, or JJ? Doesn't he just call in this spot? Even the donkiest of $5 partiers couldn't resist trying to trap with any of these holdings. And don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking anyone who plays the $5 party MTT's because I am one of them. And I have seen situations like this and folded the best hand many times.

[MrMoo]

I advocated leading the flop.

I also don't think there is anything remarkable about my hand ranges. A hand range is just that, a range. To get accurate results running simulations you need to account for things like bad plays and bluffs. If you want to narrow down his range to AJ+,JJ, then I'm sure the call is -EV. But in reality, villain can be making this play with a broad range of hands which I felt I proposed at least decently. Stop trying to think of how YOU would play it. Think about how others would play it. Including idiots. Then come up with a reasonable hand range and run the numbers.

[macdaddy991]

[ QUOTE ]
You'll see what? If OP shows you results? Villain in this hand almost certainly has AK, AQ, AJ, or JJ simply because it was posted in this forum. What motivation does macdaddy991 have to post this hand? 1) He either folded, and was wondering if it was the correct fold, 2) He called, and was wondering if it was the correct call, because he was shown a better hand and lost, or 3) He was contemplating a fold, called anyways, was shown a worse hand. However, since macdaddy991 didn't want to be results oriented, he questioned if this was a +EV call. You can't be results oriented. I never said that villain will never show up w/ AK, AQ, AJ, or JJ. But more often than not, Hero will be ahead. This call is most definitely +EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

Geez i go to bed, wake up, go to work, come home and see 30 replies. Thnaks for the input.

Truth be told, I folded. Call me weak tight, a puss, whatever, but I am still new to tournaments and I loathed losing my big stack. I still wonder though.

[MrBrightside]

as I said, I agree with the fold. interesting hand to post, btw.