betting rhythms

[Wynton]

I'm not sure I can articulate this in an intelligible way, but it seems to me that sometimes we don't discuss hands with enough consideration of what I would call rhythm.

I notice this mostly in the context of HU pots, or blind steal situations. Basically, I believe that people are often betting and reacting not so much through hand reading, but because there is a certain momentum they feel compelled to follow. This momentum is partly created by the history between the players, and partly by the sheer speed of online play. Yet, while this appears to be a real phenomenon to me, we rarely acknowledge it, beyond occasionally commenting that a person might appear to be on tilt.

I can't really think of a specific example of what I'm talking about, but just thought I'd throw out the idea and see if anyone could make sense of it.

An auto-call on a drawy board would be one example.

[Grisgra]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure I can articulate this in an intelligible way, but it seems to me that sometimes we don't discuss hands with enough consideration of what I would call rhythm.

I notice this mostly in the context of HU pots, or blind steal situations. Basically, I believe that people are often betting and reacting not so much through hand reading, but because there is a certain momentum they feel compelled to follow. This momentum is partly created by the history between the players, and partly by the sheer speed of online play. Yet, while this appears to be a real phenomenon to me, we rarely acknowledge it, beyond occasionally commenting that a person might appear to be on tilt.

I can't really think of a specific example of what I'm talking about, but just thought I'd throw out the idea and see if anyone could make sense of it.

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This is something I need to think about further -- and in more depth than the ole "he's taking a long time to bet, this means strength/weakness". There have certainly been times, for instance, that my opponent called so fast preflop and on the A-high flop from the BB (after my SB/button steal attempt) that I knew he had an ace.

In my experience super-fast bets can mean anything but are usually strength, looong pauses usually mean big strength or total weakness (player dependent), slight pauses can mean anything, and slightly-longer-than-slight-but-not-that-long pauses (basically "I was ahead, let me quick double check to make sure I still am, yep, okay") are generally very strong.

Impossible to say but I think I've probably picked up some pots here or there that I wouldn't have otherwise, specifically because of my betting cadence. (And I'm sure I've been bluffed out of pots bcs of that as well, of course, so I'm not sure how useful this is at the 20/40 and up level.)

[Chobohoya]

I agree that a superfast series of bets means huge hands generally. What's strange is that I've seen this live as well. All of my biggest pots have been BET-BET-BET-CAP online and bet-RAISE-ALLIN! live. Not sure how useful this is, because in that situation you're getting lots of money in anyways.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Wynton was talking about general betting patterns, and not the time people take to react?

[Wynton]

Yeah, that' right, Monkeyman.

I'm suggesting that sometimes people's actions are not based on hand-reading, but a certain rhythm that they almost unconsciously lapse into. This type of rhythm isn't a reference to reaction time, though I think that the speed of online play might contribute to it.

It's really more of a psychological rhythm than mechanical. Most obvious example I can think of is where people get into a betting war in a blind defense situation. In my opinion, these actions sometimes are not based upon the cards, but are a kind of reflexive response to aggression. So when we discuss hands - not to mention when we play - I believe this kind of reflexive or rhythmic action is worth recognizing.

Like I said at the outset, I'm having some trouble articulating this exactly.

I understand exactly what you mean. You see it all the time when two ppl go crazy at each other with in a HU steal situation, because they both happen to pick the same spot to take a stand. Then a pair of dueces picks up the pot at showdown.

The thing is, its very hard to describe this "phenomenon" exactly, especially in a single isolated hand example. It is related to metagame considerations, which can get very complicated if you're trying to pinpoint exactly what it is.
This is why I think we sometimes overanalyze things here, when the explanation could be as simple as: he did this because he felt like it. The only tool in our poker arsenal that helps us here is out gut poker instinct, which is just something that can't be taught.

Wynton,

I think it just feels like that is going on because their cards are face down and you'd like to believe something else is happening to cause this noticable trend.

If you take a game like blackjack (or flipping coins) for instance, this is very similar to acknowledging streaks in those games. The streaks aren't completely abnormal, but they aren't as normal as a back and forth breakeven stretch. It's human nature to dismiss the more normal occurrences and remember unusual ones.

When emotions are involved (as they are in poker and the way people play their hands sometimes), being a good hand reader is even more important that just being an EV statistician. There are betting patterns for every player. Tilt does reside in people and is much more evident in the weaker willed. However, there is no such thing as a cut-and-dry "rhythm" that is irrespective of a player's holdings.

I realize that there are times that you can just "know" that a player will raise you on the turn, and they do. There are also times when you are wrong and they either call or fold. It's our nature to ignore the times we are wrong and remember the times we are right. If a such rhythms existed, there would be no uncertainty and our opponents would conduct themselves according to the rhythm 100% of the time irregardless of the board and/or their hole cards.

I like the auto check which they interpret as an auto-check-fold, and then they bet so I can RAISE them

I think what we're talking about is a little different than this. It kind of goes past hand reading (in the deductive reasoning sort of way) and into reading your opponent in the psychological sense.

The rhythms I think we're talking about is that when people think to themselves: Ok, this time I'm gonna defend my blinds and win. They automatically check/call the flop, then c/r the turn and put in an unlimited # of extra raises. This is probably because they want to make a stand since they've folded too many times prior.

To be able to identify and stay one step ahead of your opponent with respect to these "rhythms" is a sort of mind game. For example, lets take a simple game like rock-papers-scissors. Many people would say this is a random game, and it is true to a good degree. But the example I want to talk about is when two people both go scissors for a couple turns in a row. Then it becomes a sort of mind game, do we keep going scissors? I think he thinks I will go scissors again so I should go paper to win vs his rock, etc. Now granted, this game is truly almost random because of its simplicity (= lack of information to act on) and its fast paced nature. But you get the point of playing mind games with your opponent.

So in short, these things have to do with reading your opponent in a psychological sense. They don't belong in single isolated hand posts, because they are more of a metagame consideration. This may be why certain pros are better than us, because they are very good at this sort of thing. I don't know if theres much we can do to improve on in this area, except be observant and get more experience.

[jetsonsdogcanfly]

I think more generally what he's talking about is where, over the course of a session, a certain action has grown to develop new meaning. As an example, in a HU match where BU wil raise every time preflop and bet nearly all flops. Then the OOP player may start to c/r a ton of flops. In this case, a rhytm has developed, and those bets mean substantially less than they would in isolation.

[kiddo]

[ QUOTE ]
For example, lets take a simple game like rock-papers-scissors. Many people would say this is a random game, and it is true to a good degree. But the example I want to talk about is when two people both go scissors for a couple turns in a row. Then it becomes a sort of mind game, do we keep going scissors? I think he thinks I will go scissors again so I should go paper to win vs his rock, etc. Now granted, this game is truly almost random because of its simplicity (= lack of information to act on) and its fast paced nature. But you get the point of playing mind games with your opponent.

So in short, these things have to do with reading your opponent in a psychological sense.

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I think one reason u call this rythm "psycological" is because u dont have time to think it through when u play. If u had time to think it through it would be same logic as in other decisions (odds, % he got a certain hand, hand range, what we have done earlier, etc...). Its not more pshycological then other things at table.

And not even when u play fast it got a lot to do with psychology.

If u play rock-papers-scissors both sometimes stop and laugh and think for 2 sec (lets say u both showed rock 3 times in row), and when u think for 2 sec u dont try so much to think about what he thinks as u try to stay at the surface of what is happening and see the pattern. U try to visulaise all the moves u have done so far in your head and from that understand what to do. The betting pattern will show what he will do and from that u can tell what he thinks, but what he thinks will not show what he will do.

The thinking we do is a product of the pattern. Int his way it got no meaning to say that we shouldnt overanalyse because he just did a move because "he felt like it". If that feeling isnt a result of the pattern he is just a bad player doing random moves. There are l lot of those players, I take a note on them as "tricky" instead of tricky. Their trickiness got nothing to do with the game so they will lose their money, we just have to call them a little more in strange situations.

[Wynton]

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I think one reason u call this rythm "psycological" is because u dont have time to think it through when u play. If u had time to think it through it would be same logic as in other decisions

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This is actually part of what I had in mind. With the speed of online play, I believe people (even good players) are occasionally susceptible of reacting reflexively. And by "reflexively" I don't just mean that they take a "standard" line due to multitabling, but that they occasionally allow other factors trump a strict consideration of the odds and hand reading.

In some thread today (perhaps one of Krishan's), there was a debate about what hands the villain might have to reraise the river. And while the analysis was all good and appropriate, it just occurred to me that perhaps the villain - though a good player reportedly - had just got carried away, almost by the momentum of the betting and by a decision he made on a prior street.

Maybe these times of observations can't really be discussed here since it is so much of a "feel" thing, but I think they need to be made at the tables.