Is TJs kind of a waste against a short-stack?

[J Chap]

should i have just folded this pf since the stacks are not very deep and he's repping a monstaa? seems like TJs is a nice multi-way hand when there's the possibility of reaping some serious value out of a hit.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero ($99.80)
Button ($42.35)
SB ($24.70)
BB ($40.56)
UTG ($51.25)
UTG+1 ($43.05)
MP1 ($43.70)
MP2 ($49.35)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises to $2</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls $2, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB (poster) raises to $4.75</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls $3, Hero calls $3.

Flop: ($15.50) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG+1 folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $15.50

[BigBiceps]

I do not like cold calling raises with TJs period. I will only do it if 3 or 4 people are already in the pot.

You are not in particularly good position either and will have to fold if someone else reraises behind you preflop.

[orange]

Yuck, just fold PF. SB is too short to make playing this effective. J10s- easily the most overrated hand in poker /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[wdeadwyler]

How did hero cold call? He had position on both UTG and SB. When UTG raised, Hero smooth called. Then SB raised, hero called again, not cold, because he already put a bet in. Is it standard to fold getting 4-1 with position on both players (albeit SB is short).

[c_strong]

[ QUOTE ]
How did hero cold call? He had position on both UTG and SB. When UTG raised, Hero smooth called. Then SB raised, hero called again, not cold, because he already put a bet in. Is it standard to fold getting 4-1 with position on both players (albeit SB is short).

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the first call was meant, when hero was getting 1.4:1 with two players yet to act. I agree the second call is standard given the pot odds and position, but hero was only in that spot because of his earlier mistake. Classic pre-flop compounding error, where hero ended up paying $5 to see a 3-way flop with JTs

Fold pf
By the way, what was the flop action, what did utg+1 and hero fold to?

[DJ Sensei]

Nothing here is really terrible, but I'd much rather call a raise with a hand like 65s or a low pair than JTs. The reverse implied odds can be brutal against a lot of raising hands, and its often harder to get away from postflop.

[GrunchCan]

I must dissent...

If the post was:

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: Hero is CO with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $2, 2 folds, Hero ... ?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would say that the rule of 5/10 dictates a call.

Discuss.

[PinkSteel]

The 5/10 rule applies only to pocket pairs, yes?

A wise man once said to me: "JTs is a crappy hand, fold it." I have yet to prove him wrong.

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
The 5/10 rule applies only to pocket pairs, yes?

[/ QUOTE ]

Unsure. My interpretation is that it applies to any hand that can flop big if you are consideriing coldcalling in position.

Keep talking...

[PinkSteel]

The basis of the 5/10 rule, as I understand it -- and of course if someone remembers exactly where it is they can quote and embarrass both of us -- is that it is based on the simple fact that with a pocket pair you are 7.5:1 to flop a set. If you do flop one, you're a huge favorite to win, but you have to compensate somewhat for the fact that you may yet make a mistake or lose the hand. So if your implied odds are 19:1 (the "5"), easy call with your PP; if they're 9:1 (the "10"), that's about the limit of viability, and you should probably fold it. In between it's up to you.

With JTs the math for figuring out what your big flop hand is is much more complicated, especially as many of those hands will be big draws. So a simple rule like the 5/10 doesn't exist (that I know of).

[DJ Sensei]

I generally apply the 5/10 rule to all implied odds hands (low-mid pairs, SC's, S1G's, etc.). I tend to want a smaller relative raise the weaker the hand though, as mid pairs &gt; SC's &gt; S1G's in this regard.

As far as JTs goes... I don't think calling small raises with it is a BAD thing, i'm just not as excited to see JTs as a pair or a lower SC. The problem is, against a hand that was good enough to raise preflop (especially in earlier position) there are few very good flops for JTs, aside from flopped straights/flushes or open trips. Even 2 pair isnt that great, as it allows many draws. Additionally, you can get into big trouble flopping 2 pair when the 3rd card is high as well. QJT, KJT, or AJT are all flops that can get you stacked.

So, play JTs here... but be careful with it.

[J Chap]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold pf
By the way, what was the flop action, what did utg+1 and hero fold to?

[/ QUOTE ]

a bet

[J Chap]

[ QUOTE ]
Classic pre-flop compounding error

[/ QUOTE ]

yes. i shall duly incorporate this phrase into the development of my game.

[c_strong]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The 5/10 rule applies only to pocket pairs, yes?

[/ QUOTE ]

Unsure. My interpretation is that it applies to any hand that can flop big if you are consideriing coldcalling in position.

Keep talking...

[/ QUOTE ]

As it happens I'm re-reading Reuben and Ciaffone, and have it here. It's worth specifying the particular situation they're talking about, as the 5/10 rule is often cited but most people (including me) have problems remembering what it applies to. It's on p65 of "Pot-Limit and No-Limit Poker, Stewart Reuben and Bob Ciaffone, 2 edn., copyright of the authors. The gist is this:

You're on the button with 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif8 /images/graemlins/club.gif. Three players call, you call, the BB raises pot, two of the limpers call and one folds. R&amp;C say whether to call depends on how deep the money is, and give the famous 5/10 rule as quoted in the FAQ. They also point out that the raiser is the most likely target so his stack is the most important after yours.

A few things to note in the example, compared to OC's situation:

Hero closes the betting.
Hero is getting better than 3:1 pot odds.
As noted by other posters, Hero is not playing broadway cards that may be dominated if they pair.

Another thing about C&amp;R's formulation of the 5/10 rule that is often mistaken applies to pocket pairs and position. The bit in the FAQ about "contemplating calling a raise because your position is good" is taken from the above example with SCs. The very next example is whether the SB should call a raise by the BB with 88 with two callers. The authors say that the 5/10 rule applies, notwithstanding your poor position, as you can c/r the field when the BB bets the flop. (Of course you close the betting here too.) They stress that a drawing hand needs position throughout the hand, but that a pp looking to hit a set can survive without it.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The 5/10 rule applies only to pocket pairs, yes?

[/ QUOTE ]

Unsure. My interpretation is that it applies to any hand that can flop big if you are consideriing coldcalling in position.

Keep talking...

[/ QUOTE ]
I would say there is a big difference between PP and SC with PP u flop a made set/nothing and with SC u flop a draw which will cost u moore since his continuation bet will most likely not give u proper expressed odds...