View Full Version : Simple flop question
baronzeus
12-13-2005, 07:06 AM
UTG limper is loose and aggressive. PFR is tight and aggressive.
Bet or check? The only reason I ask is that I had a disagreement with a friend who is also a poker player.
Party Poker 100/200 Hold'em (9 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter (http://www.pokerhand.org)
Preflop: Hero is BB with 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, UTG calls.
Flop: (6.50 SB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero?
jason_t
12-13-2005, 07:13 AM
Just bet. You'll take this down often enough on the flop.
spydog
12-13-2005, 08:01 AM
I bet this. I'm not really expecting to take this down, but if someone raises this then I know I can get a checkraise in on the big streets if I hit my flush. If the flop action goes check-check-bet-call-call and the turn is a spade then I'm almost forced to lead it because I can't count on the TAG to bet the turn after he got 2 callers on the flop.
I suppose the side benefit to betting the flop is that you will take it down sometimes, although I think it's pretty rare because the TAG is usually raising this PF with broadway cards and will always call this flop with a gutshot. Even the loose player probably has a decent holding (like broadways) when he limps from UTG.
shmahappens
12-13-2005, 06:17 PM
I like a CR in that you can get the limper to (maybe) fold a weak A and 10Q/10K - and of course hope that the button has a pocket pair.
Boris
12-13-2005, 06:25 PM
I don't think it matters much what you do as long as you don't play it the same way everytime. I would consider my recent history at the table when making the choice of bet, check-raise or check call on the flop.
poker1O1
12-13-2005, 06:40 PM
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I don't think it matters much what you do as long as you don't play it the same way everytime. I would consider my recent history at the table when making the choice of bet, check-raise or check call on the flop.
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agreed, moretimes than not i prefer a bet however
what other hands are people betting here?
Believe it or not the standard play for me in this spot, is to check with the intention of checkraising. Heres why, whenever I am specically in a 3 handed raised pot and I flop a calling hand and the raiser is directly on my right, I will always raise in an attemt to isolate the raiser. If I'm out of position I will checkraise, If I have position I will raise. Even with just a naked flushdraw my hand plays better Heads up then letting the middle guy stay in. This is so becuz if I can successfuly isolate the raiser, my hand has a better chance to win if I spike a pair, and my hand has a better chance of winning unimproved since if the raiser doesnt have a hand, he will usually fold the turn, And lastly, there is always a chance the raiser will have a hand like KK on that Ace high board, and make a bad fold.
Betting out the flop is wrong IMO becuz if I bet out the flop, I am giving the middle guy a good price to stay in the hand for just one small bet, and if the middle guy calls and the button calls, now I have to actually make a hand to win this pot, which is not my entire objective. The same problem arises from checking and calling.
In specifically 3 handed raised pot situations, whenever you have a calling hand I think it is always best to play your hand is such a way to get it Heads up as soon as possible. This usually means I will be raising or checkraising with my "calling hand" and even when this play doesnt work, I only lose one small bet since I had to call anyways, and there are so many times that extra small bet investment the win the whole pot, when I dont even have a hand, that is it easily worth it. Plus this play is obviously very deceptive, and can easily get opponents to play back at you in the future when you actually have a hand which makes poker fun.
Another strategy in 3 handed raised pots thats worth considering is to raise or checkraise without a calling hand if you think the raiser missed the flop. With no reads, I think this play is too dangerous and should rarely be utilized since if one of the two opponents calls, you will have no hand to fall back on and no outs to hit.
A great example of checkraising with a calling hand in a 3 handed raised pot can be found in the book "how good is your limit holdem?" by Byron Jacobs and Jim Brier, page 162.
Note: I said this is the standard line I usually take in these situations with no reads, there are always excecptions to this play, like If I strongly believed that someone else already had a strong hand, I would obvioulsy be less apt to play my calling hand aggressively.
stoxtrader
12-13-2005, 08:43 PM
checking and raising is a more expensive bluff, and betting can be cheaper.
betting also give you better implied odds on average, and 3 bets go in less often.
Depends on:
1. what you would do if you had an Ace in this spot; and
2. what you think your opponent thinks you would do if you had an ace in this spot.
Someone in this thread already said it: Use recent hand history to guide your play. I don't think there is a right answer.
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checking and raising is a more expensive bluff, and betting can be cheaper.
betting also give you better implied odds on average, and 3 bets go in less often.
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Betting out can also be expensive since this line increases the probability that this will still be a 3 player confrontation on the turn, which means the hero will be significantly less likely to take this pot down unimproved.
About the implied odds argument. With a strong draw such as a flush draw in a 3 handed raised pot, I think its better if the hero takes the line that is most likely to win this pot as soon as possible, rather than try to draw cheaply. Just telling you how I approach this situation, not saying your way is wrong and my way is right.
Surfbullet
12-13-2005, 09:37 PM
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checking and raising is a more expensive bluff, and betting can be cheaper.
betting also give you better implied odds on average, and 3 bets go in less often.
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Betting out can also be expensive since this line increases the probability that this will still be a 3 player confrontation on the turn, which means the hero will be significantly less likely to take this pot down unimproved.
About the implied odds argument. With a strong draw such as a flush draw in a 3 handed raised pot, I think its better if the hero takes the line that is most likely to win this pot as soon as possible, rather than try to draw cheaply. Just telling you how I approach this situation, not saying your way is wrong and my way is right.
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Are you expecting the 9 or the 7 to be an "out" that you are cleaning up? I daresay that if you fold them with a c/r, you would have folded them with a donk. At least when you would have been called anyway(whether you bet or c/r, like when an opponent has an A or decent T) you are more likely to get the 3rd player in to pad your equity, since realistically the flush is how you are going to expect to win this pot.
I think your general approach is interesting, but analyzing this particular hand IMO favors a lead, and can be swayed either way depending on how you have played recent hands, and how your opponents would expect you to play an ace.
Surf
RED_RAIN
12-13-2005, 09:55 PM
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And lastly, there is always a chance the raiser will have a hand like KK on that Ace high board, and make a bad fold.
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You see this often at 100/200 in a 3 way pot with a button raise? I assume you are talking about them folding the flop or else I think it gets expensive to check/raise flop and bet turn. Is that the line you are going if you get it HUs or not on the turn and are called on the flop?
I just don't like the situations where we get 3 bet on the flop and then call the turn which makes our draw expensive or where we get called on flop and then raised on turn which makes our draw even more expensive.
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checking and raising is a more expensive bluff, and betting can be cheaper.
betting also give you better implied odds on average, and 3 bets go in less often.
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Betting out can also be expensive since this line increases the probability that this will still be a 3 player confrontation on the turn, which means the hero will be significantly less likely to take this pot down unimproved.
About the implied odds argument. With a strong draw such as a flush draw in a 3 handed raised pot, I think its better if the hero takes the line that is most likely to win this pot as soon as possible, rather than try to draw cheaply. Just telling you how I approach this situation, not saying your way is wrong and my way is right.
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Are you expecting the 9 or the 7 to be an "out" that you are cleaning up? I daresay that if you fold them with a c/r, you would have folded them with a donk. At least when you would have been called anyway(whether you bet or c/r, like when an opponent has an A or decent T) you are more likely to get the 3rd player in to pad your equity, since realistically the flush is how you are going to expect to win this pot.
I think your general approach is interesting, but analyzing this particular hand IMO favors a lead, and can be swayed either way depending on how you have played recent hands, and how your opponents would expect you to play an ace.
Surf
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I see where youre coming from given this board texture. It may seem that a checkraise is unlikley to win the pot since this board is very likely to have hit the raiser. I would still go for the checkraise here though, and heres my logic, flawed or not.
Looking at the preflop action, The button raised after one player limped in....what does this tell me? To me this means that the button can have many hands that missed this board since he could easily have been attempting to isolate the lone limper. Some of the hands the button may have are KQ,QJ,KJ, other weird non-pair iso-type hands, and 99,88,77 and maybe any lower pocket pair that didnt set up. All of these hands will have a difficult time calling me unimproved on the turn.
The action preflop tells me that the button's hand is not that strong which is why I will usually checkraise with this strong of a hand(a flush draw) no matter what the board texture. I also think that if the middle guy doesnt have top pair or a strong draw he will fold which is usually typical. Given that I think there is a higher than normal chance that the button does not have a strong holding even on this board, I do not want to bet out and give the middle guy the chance to call me for one small bet on some weak hand like Tx, or weak draw like any gutshot.
About my 9 or 7 being an out or not. In these shorthanded situations many times the hero will have more outs than he thinks no matter what the texture of the board is since the likelihood of everyone missing the flop is higher than normal. When this is the case, checkraising to get the middle guy out is paramount. And when you add in the fact that a small percentage of the time(maybe 5%)the hero will induce the button to fold a strong hand like Tx or KK unimproved on the turn, this play has even more value. These are the reasons I like checkraising in this situation better than betting out.
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And lastly, there is always a chance the raiser will have a hand like KK on that Ace high board, and make a bad fold.
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You see this often at 100/200 in a 3 way pot with a button raise? I assume you are talking about them folding the flop or else I think it gets expensive to check/raise flop and bet turn. Is that the line you are going if you get it HUs or not on the turn and are called on the flop?
I just don't like the situations where we get 3 bet on the flop and then call the turn which makes our draw expensive or where we get called on flop and then raised on turn which makes our draw even more expensive.
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If I checkraise the flop and the middle guy folds and the button just calls, yes I will bet the turn here 100% of the time.
If I checkraise the flop and the middle guy calls and the button calls, I will give up the initiative and check/call the turn(the play is ruined cuz the Middle guy called)
If I checkraise the flop and the middle guy folds and the button now 3 bets, again I will give up the initiative, and usually check down and hope to hit my hand.
By the way I dont mind getting 3 bet when I have a hand as strong as a flush draw or OESD. Does this cost me in the long run in this situation? Sure it does. But this is just an annoying little cost in the long run sine my hand is strong enough to stand this pressure. No strategy is perfect. Every stategy has its risks, but the reward is winning the pot, and the hero doesnt have to take down many of these pots without the best hand to make up for these annoying little risks of being 3 bet or having our turn bet raised. The key here, is that since the hero already has a calling hand, he is really not risking that much by taking the initiative in this hand.
Paluka
12-14-2005, 12:43 AM
I don't really like checkraising here. You kill your odds and often get headsup with the guy who isn't likely to fold.
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I don't really like checkraising here. You kill your odds and often get headsup with the guy who isn't likely to fold.
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I agree with this statement if it is 4 handed or more. In precisely a 3 handed pot, you get more value out of trying to win the pot without making a hand than the odds you give up by checkraising the flop.
By playing this way will you often get heads up with a guy that isnt likely to fold?? Certaintly, but this play doesnt have to work very often to be correct. When it backfires you lose a few extra bets, when it succeeds you win the pot. I believe the reward to risk ratio is high enough to make checkraising the flop +EV relative to betting out the flop. I understand that what I am saying may not be conventional but this is how I approach 3 handed raised pots when I have a flush draw. The idea of checkraising for elimination with a flush draw or OESD just doesnt seem right, but in a 3 handed pot, this is exactly what I will usually do.
DeezNutz3
12-14-2005, 01:23 AM
Although a CR does hurt our odds, I don't see a lead on this flop working at all. People are talking about taking this down which in that game I think would happen very little. I would rather put pressure on a very possible marginal holding.
Chris Daddy Cool
12-14-2005, 04:41 AM
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Betting out the flop is wrong IMO becuz if I bet out the flop, I am giving the middle guy a good price to stay in the hand for just one small bet
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if you're the guy in the middle you're not going to agree with this statment becuase if he calls this donk bet he should readily call a raise behind him, which is why i like leading these kinds of flops sometimes with draws or weak made hands because even though the guy in the middle is getting good immediate odds, he has to assume his odds are going to be cut a good deal because he is not closing the action with the pfr behind him.
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Betting out the flop is wrong IMO becuz if I bet out the flop, I am giving the middle guy a good price to stay in the hand for just one small bet
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if you're the guy in the middle you're not going to agree with this statment becuase if he calls this donk bet he should readily call a raise behind him, which is why i like leading these kinds of flops sometimes with draws or weak made hands because even though the guy in the middle is getting good immediate odds, he has to assume his odds are going to be cut a good deal because he is not closing the action with the pfr behind him.
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Your point is valid, especially if the player in the middle is a decent to good player. I still would rather checkraise to end any suspense of whether he would call with a marginal hand/marginal draw or not. My goal is to get heads up with the preflop raiser who can easily not have a hand, I feel that check raising this flop will accomplish this goal more than betting out will.
bernie
12-14-2005, 06:59 AM
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Depends on:
1. what you would do if you had an Ace in this spot; and
2. what you think your opponent thinks you would do if you had an ace in this spot.
Someone in this thread already said it: Use recent hand history to guide your play. I don't think there is a right answer.
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I agree. There are a few different ways to play this.
Betting out can look like a draw. A c/r looks like you're trying to protect something. But if you'd play an A the same way by betting out...
UTG is the most likely to fold to your flop bet. He's LAG so if he had an A, he'd likely have raised it preflop. If he just calls or raises, you may have problems to be wary of.
If UTG folds the flop and button calls, it may take to the turn to fold the button as he may expect a draw to check the turn.
Another question is will the Button raise with an underpair to the ace on this flop or will he wait for the turn? Also, how does he react to you betting?
I'd bet out, if UTG calls and button raises then I'm just calling. Then decide what to do on the turn.
You could check call the flop, then bet the turn. Though if UTG is still in there, I'm not sure I'd try that.
b
oreogod
12-14-2005, 08:32 AM
couple things imo.
---a bet out faces UTG with a crap situation w/ a pfr behind him, and ace being on the flop. Button in this hand could put u on a draw, if he respects u he may think u are betting a weak ace to generate some action. or maybe mid pair.
---Also w/ a bet out, most likely even if button didnt hit this flop, hes almost always peeling, expecting a check maybe 30-50 percent of the time possibly. He will likely fold to a follow up bet.
---If u bet and UTG folds, BTN may try to go for a cheap showdown by raising flop and betting or checking turn (checking a decent amount w/ an unmade hand...but possibly betting to pressure a possible mid-pair...which would probably be unlikely, I dont think he thinks you are folding much)...so even if your bet does not pick up the pot, u do get to draw super cheap a percentage of the time.
Check-raising could net u the pot possibly, but u also have to account for the times BTN calls and pops turn, 3bets flop and bets turn..etc. BTN is almost never folding the flop to a CR, he's probably peeling a good amount.
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I had more to add on the C/Ring part but Im falling asleep here so I pretty much forgot what I was going to say. I think the most important thing is your image. Do u look like a lag/donk/tag/kicker-of-ass this session, etc. I think that goes a long way towards giving u your answer. If u have been check-raising all your draws, bet out. If u have been betting/donking more draws then c/r. Mix it up, give him whatever line makes him more afraid u have a hand.
MNpoker
12-14-2005, 02:45 PM
It's because of situations like this that I insta-muck preflop.
You hit (as well as could be expected) and now the hand is still hard to play.
stoxtrader
12-14-2005, 04:41 PM
Both lines are +EV, given the current size of the pot. The fact that deciding between the two is "close" or "hard" is not a good reason to muck this pre-flop.
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Both lines are +EV, given the current size of the pot. The fact that deciding between the two is "close" or "hard" is not a good reason to muck this pre-flop.
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This statement is absolutely correct. I have explained my general philosophy of why I prefer checkraising over betting, but both these plays are close and both are +EV.
What about folding preflop with our 97s. Is this a viable option? Given the action preflop, the hero's hand is simply too strong to fold getting 5-1. Since the button is isolating a single limper, it is very unlikely that an overpair is out, which is why the hero must call and participate.
Now if you change the action preflop I would fold 97s in the BB getting 5-1. For example if a TAG raised UTG and another TAG coldcalled UTG+1 then I would fold, becuz the chance an overpair is out is just too high for me to continue even getting 5-1.
Flush draws are fun to play not hard to play.
RED_RAIN
12-14-2005, 06:10 PM
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It's because of situations like this that I insta-muck preflop.
You hit (as well as could be expected) and now the hand is still hard to play.
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With a limper then a raiser, I complete any 2 suited in the BB.
NLfool
12-14-2005, 06:31 PM
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It's because of situations like this that I insta-muck preflop.
You hit (as well as could be expected) and now the hand is still hard to play.
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wow I though I was tight. Maybe with 9s4s you muck but 9s7s is plenty good for a call here
TStoneMBD
12-15-2005, 12:04 AM
id check call.
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