Preflop decision.....

[audavidb]

Please help settle this debate. Very loose TX home game, limits are 15-30. There is a late postion poster. Your in middle position and a loose aggressive player raises in front of you and you look down and see 10-10, what do you do.......

[rtrombone]

[audavidb]

Let me give you the arguements, does he have a case....

Me....3 bet, you need to narrow the field as much as possible and punish those in with an inferior hand. It also may drive out the late position poster and blinds and give you control of the pot to take even if a ten doesnt flop or turn.....

His.....Call, you wont push anyone else out and its not going to be hds up even with a 3 bet. Game is loose and this lineup respects a 2 or 3 bet equally, either they are in or out....Also, if you keep the pot a little smaller you can control it or get out of it as needed, by 3 betting you tie yourself to the pot by making it so big and what flop do you like with 4 or 5 players. There still seems to be enough equity to warrant a call here as the payoff could be big flopping a set so why try to limit the field if I need to hit a set to win anyway....

Seeing the hands that win at this game folding just seems stupid, but we both realize that folding is an acceptable and possibly the right answer.....

[Instinct]

Depending on your image at the table I guess. If the game is super crazy and your 3 bet will likely have 3 or 4 callers behind you anyway, then I may just call.

However, personally I would 3 bet almost 100% time

My image is fairly tight pre-flop so alot of the time I would see the flop heads up or 3 way in this situation.

[rtrombone]

You neglected to mention whether there were limpers. I assumed that the loose aggressive guy open-raised. In this situation, a 3-bet is pretty much automatic.

I can't believe multiple people will call 3 bets cold (or 2 bets if they're in the blind or have posted) so blithely. If your friend is right and they will, there may be something to what he is saying.

TT and JJ are more like the small and medium pocket pairs than they are like AA, KK and QQ. With TT and JJ you can't be too happy if you raise UTG and are called in 7 spots. (If you knew so many were going to call, you would've limped to improve your implied odds.) I remember reading in HPFAP that you want to raise with JJ in tight games and limp with it in loose games. The worst scenario is when exactly 4 people see the flop with you. Because JJ is not likely to hold up here, and you're not getting the right price to flop a set.

What's weird is that this goes against the general rule that you should raise with your premium hands before the flop to punish everyone who's playing garbage.

You know what, I'm not sure what the right EV play is. I think I agree with the former advice, though. Group JJ and TT with the medium pairs, not AA/KK/QQ/AK/AQ. If a raise doesn't have at least a decent chance of getting it 4-handed to the flop, you should probably just call.

The only time folding is correct is when you see the loose aggressive's hand and he has a pocket pair higher than yours.

[Dante]

It really depends what you think the other players would do. In my games, if open-raised to me by LAP, I would 3-bet as my 3bet is well respected. If you think you would get heads up, maybe 1 caller, 3bet, esp since you probably have the best hand (for now). If people will call your 3-bet as easily as they would 2bets (single raise), I would just call.

Dante

[Ed Miller]

You 3-bet. I don't think it's close.

[Dynasty]

I remember reading in HPFAP that you want to raise with JJ in tight games and limp with it in loose games. The worst scenario is when exactly 4 people see the flop with you. Because JJ is not likely to hold up here, and you're not getting the right price to flop a set.

First, HEPFAP's loose game advice regarding JJ and TT is usually going to be wrong. More importantly, it is not very well explained and understood by almost all readers even worse.

The key detail is what your opponents will call raises (or 3-bets) with. HEPFAP doesn't spend any real time discussing this issue. If you see your opponents routinely calling raises with small and medium pocket pairs (very common) and suited connects, then raising is definitely the play.

However, if they call the raises with offsuit (or suited) high cards, then calling becomes an option. If you raise with TT and get called in just two spots with opponents holding AJo and KQo, you will only win the showdown 1/3 of the time.

The key is what your opponents cold-call raises with. Start observing that in your games. Most will call with pocket pairs. Some will call with suited connectors but not offsuit high cards. Others will call with the high cards but not the suited connectors.

[elysium]

hi aud
i think that you should reraise here every time. the opportunity to get heads up is too good to turn down. i agree that you must also have a feel for what your opponents will call the reraise with, but that extra bit of knowledge should be applied after, not before, the flop.

a reraise also will help to protect your hand if you get over-carded by a J or Q. a bet on the flop may do it if you are against overs.

hfap does have something to say about the number of opponents when you hold this type of hand. but this info only comes in handy when there are already 3 or more in the hand, you hold LP position, and your left is predictable. then you may want to call so that if you flop a set you won't scare an early bettor from betting; and of course, you keep your costs down those times you fail to flop and get double over-carded. but from MP with only 1 opponent in, even if the game is loose, you must go ahead and reraise to attempt to get heads up and protect your hand, especially if you think exactly 3 other opponents will be seeing the flop with you.

[David Sklansky]

The late position poster pretty much guarantees that a reraise is the best play.

[Mason Malmuth]

The advice to raise with JJ in a tight game but to call in a loose games pertains specifically to when you are first in from an early position.

MM

[audavidb]

Thanks for your response, should I assume that you agree a reraise is the right play? If the player was first in, you believe a limp is in order (assuming no poster in back)?

[audavidb]

Thanks David, what if there was no blind posted from back, still rereaise?