Pwned by Freddie Deeb, WPT Bellagio ME

[sirio11]

Ok, I played today 2 important hands with Freddie Deeb.

Hand #1:

Blinds 50-100, first level in the tournament.

David Plastik raises to 300, Freddie Deeb called 300 in the SB and I raised to 1500 with K /images/graemlins/diamond.gifK /images/graemlins/club.gif in the big blind. David P folded and Freddie called.

Pot is 3300, and we both have near the original 30k stacks.

Flop is Q /images/graemlins/spade.gifJ /images/graemlins/heart.gif9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

He checked and I checked.

Turn is 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Freddie bets 3000

I call

River 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Freddie bets 4k

Your move?

And any comments about the preflop, flop and turn action as well.

______________________________________

Hand #2

Blinds 100-200 2nd level of the tournament

Freddie Deeb mini-raises to 400, I decided to call with 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif, and just the BB called also.

1300 in the pot, I'm last to act.

Flop 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

BB checks, Freddie bets 700, I raise to 2000, BB folds and Freddie calls.

Pot is 5300

Turn Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Freddie bets 5000 !!!!

Your move ?

Grunch: hand 1:
1) Bet on flop. Im not sure how much (maybe half the pot?) , I just don't like letting this board get away from me.
2) Turn: I'm not sure if he was trying to represent the flush here or if he actually had it. You have around 2 to 1 for the call, so you really need a read here to do that or maybe push?
3) River: Fold, kick a chair?

p.s. im still learning here about MTTs, but i figure the same idea applies as in the micro forum: post more, dont read the replies first. How did the hand turn out?

[KneeCo]

I really hate not betting the flop on hand 1.

There are 4 Aces, 9 hearts, and 8 non heart cards that would pair the board. Any of those come off on the turn and your life just got harder. Avoid difficult spots, especially against great players. I would bet 2500 on the flop there.

Hand 2 is kind of read based, we all know you have experience against Deeb, so I would think if you went with your gut, you probably did the right thing, regardless of the outcome.

That being said, it seems to me a strong flush would want to go for a CR there after the flop action.

[betgo]

I realize you had position, but I am not crazy about calling raises with 32s. It seems like the trouble you got into is more or less what would be expected.

Hand 1:

[ QUOTE ]
I raised to 1500 with K /images/graemlins/diamond.gifK /images/graemlins/club.gif

Flop is Q /images/graemlins/spade.gifJ /images/graemlins/heart.gif9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

He checked and I checked.


[/ QUOTE ]

pwned.

Hand 2:


[ QUOTE ]
Freddie bets 5000 !!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Are these happy exclamation points? The odds that you're beat here are really low.



I think you're playing way too scared. In hand 1, well you just have to bet. In hand 2, his bet doesn't make much sense, but it seems very unlikely to be a flush because he'd probably c/r. More importantly, you've got a really big hand and you've disguised it to some extent, so get money in.

[sirio11]

[ QUOTE ]
I really hate not betting the flop on hand 1.

There are 4 Aces, 9 hearts, and 8 non heart cards that would pair the board.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't like the flop of course, but these are my reasons to check the flop

1) I want to keep the pot as small as I can.
2) I want him to think I have AK
3) I'm not that afraid of the free cards, I don't think he called a raise and a reraise with an A, possible AK and maybe AQs; but since I have KK, I think he has some pair or maybe called with suited connectors. And even if he have TT I'm not that afraid of the straight since I have 2 of the K.

[adanthar]

If he can have JJ-99, I like (or at least don't hate) the check in hand 1 because this is one of those hands he can make you play for your stack but not vice versa...oh well, by the river the board sucks, next hand.

Hand 2...I'm pushing this now because I'd do the same with anything made/vulnerable.

[ QUOTE ]
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I really hate not betting the flop on hand 1.

There are 4 Aces, 9 hearts, and 8 non heart cards that would pair the board.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't like the flop of course, but these are my reasons to check the flop

1) I want to keep the pot as small as I can.
2) I want him to think I have AK
3) I'm not that afraid of the free cards, I don't think he called a raise and a reraise with an A, possible AK and maybe AQs; but since I have KK, I think he has some pair or maybe called with suited connectors. And even if he have TT I'm not that afraid of the straight since I have 2 of the K.

[/ QUOTE ]

The range you gave includes JT, 9T, as well as 4h5h, 5h6h, 6h7h, 7h8h, KhQh, KQ, AK, AQs. I don't see why you're not afraid of giving free cards.

[KneeCo]

[ QUOTE ]

2) I want him to think I have AK

[/ QUOTE ]

Wouldn't you cont. bet/semi-bluff in this spot with AK?

In the first hand I think someone who re-raises substantially preflop and doesn't bet out on the flop looks too suspicious.

[adanthar]

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2) I want him to think I have AK

[/ QUOTE ]

Wouldn't you cont. bet/semi-bluff in this spot with AK?

[/ QUOTE ]

On a QJ9 board...no.

[betgo]

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2) I want him to think I have AK

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Wouldn't you cont. bet/semi-bluff in this spot with AK?

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

Call me crazy, but I think not strongly leading the flop in Hand 1 is a terrible mistake. Why keep the pot small? You almost certainly have the best hand!

Hand 2, please fold pre-flop.

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
Call me crazy, but I think not strongly leading the flop in Hand 1 is a terrible mistake. Why keep the pot small? You almost certainly have the best hand!

Hand 2, please fold pre-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree on both points.

In hand 1, it is a dangerous board, but you have an overpair and gut shot. You are not that big a dog against 2 pair and you have outs against a set or straight. Villain could easily give you action with a pair plus open ended, TPTK, or something and be way behind. I would raise and be ready to go allin.

I don't understand the point of calling with 32s. You could easily make a straight, a flush, or 2-pair and go bust. This seems like a decent hand to steal raise with, creating great deception, but why call.

Also, I don't think you are a much better than average player at this level of tournament. Someone like Negreanu might call here hoping to out play postflop with position. You wound up in a hand with Freddy Deeb with 32s. You make a flush and you don't know where you stand.

[johnnybeef]

Hand 1: I bet pot, and proceed very carefully, as it turns out, you have to fold this river.

Hand 2: shove. a lead like that is often weak.

Against a guy like Deeb I would pick my strong hands and play them very decisively. Hand 1 is just such a hand. I would be trying to put him to the tough decisions when I am holding strong hands. I wouldn't be looking to tangle with him post-flop with 32s unless I'm getting great odds and willing to drop it unless I flop the nuts.

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
Against a guy like Deeb I would pick my strong hands and play them very decisively.

[/ QUOTE ]

a pair of kings is not a strong hand. thinking like this is what makes freddy deeb a lot of money.

On the first hand I would have played it completely differently. I would have not checked to let Freddy see the turn for free. I would have made a 3/4 pot bet on the flop. If I played the hand like you I would have tossed the first hand after the river since I had no hearts.
The second hand after Freddy bets 5k, I would have pushed all in on him. What could he possibly have, top pair, a higher pocket pair, or maybe he caught the queen on the turn for his Ace Queen hand?

[ QUOTE ]
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Against a guy like Deeb I would pick my strong hands and play them very decisively.

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a pair of kings is not a strong hand. thinking like this is what makes freddy deeb a lot of money.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL!

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
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Against a guy like Deeb I would pick my strong hands and play them very decisively.

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a pair of kings is not a strong hand. thinking like this is what makes freddy deeb a lot of money.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL!

[/ QUOTE ]

my dude,

this isn't a party super tournament where everyone has 75 bb and you get about 2.5 orbits per level. this is a tournament in which the stacks are 300 bb each and there is a shitload of money on the line. if you are willing to go broke with one measly pair in this situation, i wish you the best of luck.

johnny

[ QUOTE ]

my dude,

this isn't a party super tournament where everyone has 75 bb and you get about 2.5 orbits per level. this is a tournament in which the stacks are 300 bb each and there is a shitload of money on the line. if you are willing to go broke with one measly pair in this situation, i wish you the best of luck.

johnny

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, but there's a difference between committing your stack and betting like 1/10 of it here with an overpair and a gutshot.

[adanthar]

Noah,

Here is what will happen...maybe not 99%, but definitely most of the time you bet 2500 with one pair (no matter what pair that is) on this board given Deeb's PF range:

Freddie Deeb calls, or makes it 3x your bet.

Now what?

If you call his CR, how comfortable do you feel on 25-ish turn cards when he either bets 10K of his 22K or pushes into a 15K pot?

[ QUOTE ]
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Against a guy like Deeb I would pick my strong hands and play them very decisively.

[/ QUOTE ]

a pair of kings is not a strong hand. thinking like this is what makes freddy deeb a lot of money.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL!

[/ QUOTE ]

my dude,

this isn't a party super tournament where everyone has 75 bb and you get about 2.5 orbits per level. this is a tournament in which the stacks are 300 bb each and there is a shitload of money on the line. if you are willing to go broke with one measly pair in this situation, i wish you the best of luck.

johnny

[/ QUOTE ]

Decisive doesn't mean blindly pushing in your whole stack, "dude."

[sirio11]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree, but there's a difference between committing your stack and betting like 1/10 of it here with an overpair and a gutshot.


[/ QUOTE ]

What are you doing if you bet the flop and he raises?

Any time you make a bet in the flop, you have to take in account all the possible action generated by such bet, especially with stacks this deep.

[CieloAzor]

I like your play on every street of both hands and agree with the reasons you gave. I think calling a min-raise with small suited connectors, position (edit), and stacks that deep is a no brainer. I'm really interested to see the decisions you made on these hands.

Hand 1:

The only thing I might do differently is raise the turn. It's a good way to find out if he's just messing around, and lets you protect against the 4th heart. He'll probably fold a decent amount here. If he raises, you fold. If he calls, you may still have the best hand and you've probably just earned a free showdown on the river.

As played, I don't think the river is an obvious fold, only because I'd probably play Deeb's hand in the same manner even if I didn't have any cards. He could have a big heart but he could absolutely have air here. Still, I probably sigh, fold, and hate myself for it because I'm far from convinced.

Hand 2: He turned a set of Queens? Well, maybe he did and maybe he didn't, but I like everything you did here and I think you're ahead. If I knew he had a set, I'd raise, but my default here is to call him down. Protecting your hand does have some value, but I don't know that it's enough to offset the times when you push ~30k in chips in and get busted. Also, you'd take away his chance to bluff the river with the worst hand.

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
I like your play on every street of both hands and agree with the reasons you gave. I think calling a min-raise with small suited connectors and stacks that deep is a no brainer. I'm really interested to see the decisions you made on these hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

But he didn't have a suited connector.

[CieloAzor]

[ QUOTE ]
But he didn't have a suited connector.

[/ QUOTE ]

We can debate semantics all day, but calling a min-raise in position, with stacks that deep, is almost always worth it. 32 would look pretty sexy to me in this spot.

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
Decisive doesn't mean blindly pushing in your whole stack, "dude."

[/ QUOTE ]

what does it mean then? betting at it hard and becoming pot committed when he shoves his set, or flush, or straight flush draw at you?

ps. part of the value of position, is that you don't have to play every hand decisively

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I agree, but there's a difference between committing your stack and betting like 1/10 of it here with an overpair and a gutshot.


[/ QUOTE ]

What are you doing if you bet the flop and he raises?

[/ QUOTE ]

How much does he raise?

Depends on context. Maybe I muck and say, "that's what I get for trying a bluff on Freddie." Or, maybe I call and blind check the turn to see what he does. Or, maybe I call and lead out again calmly.

I'm all jacked up. I didn't realize Freddie is in the SB. Let me rethink this. Sorry about that.

[betgo]

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But he didn't have a suited connector.

[/ QUOTE ]

We can debate semantics all day, but calling a min-raise in position, with stacks that deep, is almost always worth it. 32 would look pretty sexy to me in this spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

654 and A54 make straights. You can also make a nut low flush and nut low 2 pair.

If you want limp behind or call a miniraise with any 2 on the button (was he on the button?), I suppose this is OK.

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Decisive doesn't mean blindly pushing in your whole stack, "dude."

[/ QUOTE ]

what does it mean then? betting at it hard and becoming pot committed when he shoves his set, or flush, or straight flush draw at you?

ps. part of the value of position, is that you don't have to play every hand decisively

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree regarding position, I was jacked up on where Freddie was at.

Although, that doesn't change much regarding playing this particular hand decisively. By decisively, I mean I really like the preflop raise that drew Freddie into a big pot while we had position with a monster hand.

Post-flop, being decisive means playing the hand straight forward until you have a reason not to. He checked, I have an overpair and there are draws on the board. I bet 2/3 to full pot bet. This is where I think the mistake was made by David.

[renodoc]

Thanks for posting these David.

Hand #1 I think that you have to make some kind of information bet along the way. Either you bet the flop or you raise the turn. Your hand seems worthless to me on the river here. I puke inside when that flop comes up anyway. There are so many ways you could be losing here.

On hand two, I think you decided to play a "tricky" hand, you actually hit it(!!!!!) Did you get paralyzed when a good player made a pot sized bet on the turn?? Its really easy to sit in front of the computer trying to put Deeb on a hand here- far far different from sitting at the table. I haven't played with him before, but this kind of bet seems like he has an overpair or top pair, and he probably has a big heart to go with it. He also could have a set of Queens. There is some "kill phil" logic to pushing here, hoping that he only has one heart and will give up. If you push into a bigger flush then it wasn't your day....

[ QUOTE ]
Noah,

Here is what will happen...maybe not 99%, but definitely most of the time you bet 2500 with one pair (no matter what pair that is) on this board given Deeb's PF range:

Freddie Deeb calls, or makes it 3x your bet.

Now what?

If you call his CR, how comfortable do you feel on 25-ish turn cards when he either bets 10K of his 22K or pushes into a 15K pot?

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you that this is a tough spot. I disagree that we get into it 99% of the time. I think we've both oversimplified the situation.

You may be right though... I'm not giving enough weight to the very slim range Deeb can put us on.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Noah,

Here is what will happen...maybe not 99%, but definitely most of the time you bet 2500 with one pair (no matter what pair that is) on this board given Deeb's PF range:

Freddie Deeb calls, or makes it 3x your bet.

Now what?

If you call his CR, how comfortable do you feel on 25-ish turn cards when he either bets 10K of his 22K or pushes into a 15K pot?

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you that this is a tough spot. I disagree that we get into it 99% of the time. I think we've both oversimplified the situation.

You may be right though... I'm not giving enough weight to the very slim range Deeb can put us on.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I may not be giving full credit to the texture of this situation. Great appreciation to David for posting this and giving us all such great situations to chew on.

[bruce]

Thanks for the posts. Much obliged.

Hand 1 Freddie can have anything. The tourny is very deepstacked and he wound up in the pot on the installment plan. Given his loose reputation putting him on a hand
is very difficult. He's also going to use his image to
his advantage. I think there are way too many scare cards
on the turn to give him a free card. I make a pot sized
bet on the flop and play accordingly.

Hand 2, come on everyone, this is a big [censored] deep stack tournament. Calling a miniraise with 32s, although it might not be a great play, can't be too bad a play. I guess I must have a lot of leaks because I would be tempted
to play 32s on the button against Freddie. He's too damn
aggressive for this not to have big implied odds. On the
turn I'm willing to go broke with a made hand. I can't put
Freddie on a flush. If he does god bless him. In a headsup
situation I can't specifically put villian on a flush or straight.

Bruce

HAND ONE:

Freddy's range of hands is too large, and as such, I like your intent to keep the pot small. As long as the river isn't a heart, you are getting nice EV for your kings, especially given the scary board. Unfortunately, in this situation, you don't prepare yourself at all for the worst -if a fourth heart comes out.

I fold the river here - I don't see how you win this. at this point.

If it were me, I would have bet out the flop here. My intent would not be to keep this pot small on wait for cards. I would bet the pot on the flop and hope that Deeb folds. If he reraises, I can put him all-in with 2 more kings and four tens to the straight draw. If he has a set, then so be it.

I don't know what your stack size is on the 2nd level. However, this funky on Freddy's behalf. I push.

Argun

[sirio11]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know what your stack size is on the 2nd level. However, this funky on Freddy's behalf. I push.


[/ QUOTE ]

On hand #2, I started with about 21k, and Freddie has more than that, probably around 30k

[scott8]

David,

I really don't know how you fold hand #2. I assume you just called and a scare card came on the river?

-Scott

[MLG]

Hand 1. I play it the same way, fold the river.

Hand 2. Push, if he has a better flush so be it. I think 1 pair and a big heart, or a set are much too likely to give a free card or fold.

ok.
Hand 1:
i dont like the check on the flop.i think its a scarry board,and you should certainly be happy with taking the pot rgiht there.i would make a slighty larger than half the pot size bet here to get more info from his hand.
by you checking behind him ,not only your giving him a free card but you actually have no idea what he has?
im sure your a better player than i am so there must be a reason for your check,so im very interested to know why you checked?
Hand 2:
depends on the stack size but i dont think i could let this hand go at all.but i would not invest any more wither and would just call him down.

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1. I play it the same way, fold the river.

Hand 2. Push, if he has a better flush so be it. I think 1 pair and a big heart, or a set are much too likely to give a free card or fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are going to play 32s, you can't fold when you make a flush.

Everyone is saying Deeb has some fairly big made hand maybe with a heart. I think he could have anything. If he made a flush, he might bet out for value and to protect it against a higher heart. He could also have a pair and no hearts and is representing the flush. If he checks when the heart hits, OP could take the pot away, so he has to show strength.

[ QUOTE ]


If you are going to play 32s, you can't fold when you make a flush.


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with everything you said except for this... don't make these arguments as they don't add anything to the discussion.

[betgo]

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If you are going to play 32s, you can't fold when you make a flush.


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I agree with everything you said except for this... don't make these arguments as they don't add anything to the discussion.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just mean that you can't fold the flush, particularly against a strong tricky player.

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Pot is 5300
Turn Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif
Freddie bets 5000 !!!!
Your move ?

[/ QUOTE ]

From the Plaza tournament, remember Freddy Deeb feared the small bet more than the big bet. However, he did this from players he knew and respected (Flack and Negreanu). I'm gonna guess that Freddy doesn't know you. Also, since you puked and folded that previous hand in this post, he's probably of the opinion that he can push you off of a nice pot with a strong bet.

Adding all this information together, it appears that Deeb could just be potting a scare card. Notice in hand 1 he potted/smaller bet (it appears). Perhaps Semibluff/value bet?

Absent information you get when sitting at a table (I don't mean physical tells, I just mean the subconscious absorption of information that often allows you make the right decision), this seems to me to be a clear push.

What were your instincts telling you? It seems to me, becaise you posted the hand, that your instincts threw up a big red "WTF" flag? I know whenever my gut does that, I need to take my time to think things through before I act.

[Roman]

People saying to bet the flop in hand 1 dont know how to play deepstacked poker, period. I would have played hand 1 the same way you did.

Same thing with hand 2, just get your money in there on the turn.

[ansky451]

Pot control is definitely something you want to excersize on hand 1. I think I play it the exact same way- unless I have some specific read that tells me freddy would be bluffing me here.

Hand 2. I would fold preflop, but with deep enough stacks I'd even hear an argument to calling with 29o- and you play well post flop so I'm fine with the call. I like the flop action and on the turn I'm going broke. I don't think he goes bonkers here with a higher flush, combined with the fact that he may have 3 bet all in with a big draw on the flop.

Well, I still push. You have enough chips to make him sweat, and from the sounds of it, he's playing his usual style, which is aggro. The bet here, however, is just so funky. First he bets 700, then he calls your pot size raise, then he just lashes out another pot sized bet when a third heart comes up? Well, judging from your actions thus far, he doesn't think you have two hearts. You have a very, very inconspicuous hand. Chances are he puts you on top pair, with maybe one heart. Sounds like he himself has a strong pair and he's defending against a fourth heart OR is now on a flush draw with a pair. Whatever the case, I see him playing a made flush differently. Like I said, I'd push on the turn.

[ QUOTE ]
People saying to bet the flop in hand 1 dont know how to play deepstacked poker, period.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're probably right.

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If you are going to play 32s, you can't fold when you make a flush.


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I agree with everything you said except for this... don't make these arguments as they don't add anything to the discussion.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just mean that you can't fold the flush, particularly against a strong tricky player.

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I know.. but using the logic that you did simply detracts from the argument and makes others think it's okay to use the same logic when playing, which is really bad.

[SpeakEasy]

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I really hate not betting the flop on hand 1.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it at all ironic that you played a very strong hand as weak, and a very weak hand as strong, against a world class player, and now you're posting about them on here?

[sirio11]

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I'm gonna guess that Freddy doesn't know you. Also, since you puked and folded that previous hand in this post, he's probably of the opinion that he can push you off of a nice pot with a strong bet.


[/ QUOTE ]

Well, He did know me; we played together a final table in the WSOP and I busted him out then, I'm pretty sure he wanted to take revenge /images/graemlins/frown.gif
But you are right that he probably thinks he can push me off the pot with a bet.

You're right, check behind on the flop so that you can play a guessing game with Freedie Deeb on the later streets by letting him take control of the hand. Great idea. One thing you never want to do is maintain control of the hand. When you flop a board that could have definitely helped your opponent or given them a good draw, always give them a free card.

[ QUOTE ]
People saying to bet the flop in hand 1 dont know how to play deepstacked poker, period. I would have played hand 1 the same way you did.

Same thing with hand 2, just get your money in there on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure you're right, but what makes deepstack different enough that you wouldn't want to at least bet that flop?

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If you are going to play 32s, you can't fold when you make a flush.


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I agree with everything you said except for this... don't make these arguments as they don't add anything to the discussion.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think this was a perfectly obvious point. only reason to play 23s would be 1)hit set/boat/quads 2)hit straight or flush 3)outplay your opponent and take the pot away

you've hit the flush, why would you consider this a scary situation, go broke, if he has the higher flush so be it.

[KneeCo]

Can we assume the following about hand 1?

1) We are ahead on this flop more often than not.
2) If we check behind Deeb will probably bet the turn.
3) There are 21 cards, and accordingly a ~44% chance of seeing one of them, on the turn that would make us cringe.
4) Where we are ahead, Deeb has outs (2 or more) to take the lead, and in most cases will be taking the lead with a hand that he knows is best. There is nothing about this hand that makes the old adage about never giving a draw a free card moot.
5) Getting check raised is possible, but so is taking the pot down with a flop bet.

As best I can tell, none of these assumptions are especially controversial, if we accept them, I think it's clear that betting the flop is best.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
You're right, check behind on the flop so that you can play a guessing game with Freedie Deeb on the later streets by letting him take control of the hand. Great idea. One thing you never want to do is maintain control of the hand. When you flop a board that could have definitely helped your opponent or given them a good draw, always give them a free card.

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Also, you should always play KK on a QJ9, two suited board against a pro (who called two rounds of raises) in the manner that is the most likely to get 75 BB in the pot by the turn.

[ QUOTE ]
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You're right, check behind on the flop so that you can play a guessing game with Freedie Deeb on the later streets by letting him take control of the hand. Great idea. One thing you never want to do is maintain control of the hand. When you flop a board that could have definitely helped your opponent or given them a good draw, always give them a free card.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also, you should always play KK on a QJ9, two suited board against a pro (who called two rounds of raises) in the manner that is the most likely to get 75 BB in the pot by the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

God Freddie has you right where he wants you. Playing in fear.

[adanthar]

Do yourself a favor before you make another post in this thread: run Pokerstove for KK vs. AA-99, KJs+, QJs, JTs, T9s on this flop. Assume that he has those hands 2/3 of the time and folds to a bet the other 1/3, netting you 3000 chips. Then figure out how many of those remaining hands will (for example) CR the flop and overbet push any turn and whether sirio should call both bets, given that Deeb is properly mixing his semibluffs and made hands here at some near optimal frequency.

After you figure out that betting loses sirio money, post again.

[ansky451]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
People saying to bet the flop in hand 1 dont know how to play deepstacked poker, period. I would have played hand 1 the same way you did.

Same thing with hand 2, just get your money in there on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure you're right, but what makes deepstack different enough that you wouldn't want to at least bet that flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Know and understand this term: POT CONTROL.

He has a very marginal hand here, the bigger the pot is, the greater the chance that he has the worst hand. Giving away a free card here isn't that big a deal.

Hand 1: I check behind maybe zero times...you made a big raise pre...so u arent giving your hand away by making a big bet on the flop and you are certainly protecting it against any of a million draws. Given that you did check behind...you habe now opted to play the hand like a pussy (not that playing that way is bad per se, but u have laid this path for urself i think)..so the semidisguting 5 hts turns...and i happen to think freddys bet is a little nasty here...to me it seems that if he were bluffing he could get you off of the AK you are representing with a bet far less than 3k, but he made it 3k anyway. So I respect this bet quite alot. But lets fins out anyway by making it ..umm...10k total?....you could very well take this pot down now, or most definitely get a river check if he flat calls and does NOT have an already made hand. (yI would check behind such a river chack)....if he reshoves allin very nh sir and u fold. Given that you DID call, i am calling that last 4k..nice odds that he may have kq or ak or something.


Hand 2:you play 2-3 hearts and u turn a flush...i dont know how many chips you have left but all or most of them are going in the middle now. if he has a better flush u lose.


sheets

[Roman]

What real hand is giving a free card here on the flop and then raising the turn? That line makes no sense to me.

Do you call a c/r when u bet out like that sheets?

[renodoc]

[ QUOTE ]
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I'm sure you're right, but what makes deepstack different enough that you wouldn't want to at least bet that flop?


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Know and understand this term: POT CONTROL.

He has a very marginal hand here, the bigger the pot is, the greater the chance that he has the worst hand. Giving away a free card here isn't that big a deal.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really want to understand the thinking here!

I think this QJ9 suited flop sucks eggs. I hate it. I think the chances of being ahead here are 50-50 at best. Please explain to me why the hero shouldn't try to take the pot down now, on the flop. Or is it your suggestion that the hand is lost on this flop (unless hero improves)?

[Chris Daddy Cool]

i only read through the first page or so in replies and i didn't like what i was reading.

hand 1 the flop check is fine. when you get checkrasied on this flop your life is going to be miserable. there really isn't anything wrong with keeping the pot small on this flop. you guys have 300bb stacks here.

hand 2 is closer than you guys are making it to be but i think i like shoving it in there the best.

[Bill Kolter]

Hand 1: I would never--EVER--check that flop holding an overpair, but then again, I would never find myself facing Freddie Deeb, either, so I'm obviously my giving you advice is a bit surreal. You have no additional information at this point as to what you are facing. If I were Freddy, I would definitely represent the flush on the turn after your check. He's 2-1 to have a heart in his hand and you're getting paid better 2.6-1. Call, unless your read tells you otherwise.

Hand #2. If you weren't calling the pre-flop raise in the hopes of catching a flush, why were you calling? This is what happens when you play that garbage. You have a flush, true, but it's a crappy one. At this point, I wouldn't give him a chance to catch a heart on the river if he has one. Push or fold, depending on your read.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]

I really want to understand the thinking here!

I think this QJ9 suited flop sucks eggs. I hate it. I think the chances of being ahead here are 50-50 at best. Please explain to me why the hero shouldn't try to take the pot down now, on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

In a Party tournament, with shallower stacks and terrible play, you would simply bet and get it all in vs. AQ.

Live with...wait, 300 BB? I said 75 a post or two ago for some reason, but this makes it *much* worse...anyway, with 300 BB, when you get that many chips in the middle, Freddie Deeb will not have AQ. Ever.

When you reraise and this flop hits, Deeb knows you have one of a few hands: TPTK (unlikely but doesn't matter), an overpair, a set, or AK/air if you bluffed. The bluffs all end on a QJ9 flop, so when you bet, he knows you have at least AQ. Therefore, AQ won't call you. JT/T9 might, but you're tied with them. About the only hand he might continue with that you are ahead of is KQs, and only if he thinks he can stack you when he hits (note that he will play KhQh exactly like AhKh, so even a ten can be a dangerous card for you).

So basically, by betting, you're not maintaining control of the hand, you're giving it to Deeb (who will continue with most of what he had PF), because when he CR's, the pot will be so big by the river (without narrowing his range at all) that you'll often have to put in 300 BB with one pair. Ask anyone in MHNL how often that is a good idea.

Brutal flop w/ KK, I like the check behind on the flop and the call on the turn. I'd probably fold the river there. Hand two, I think there is a good chance that he is doing one of those feeler bets to see where you stand in the hand by leading into you after you raise. Since a fourth heart kills your action and potentially your hand I'd push here.

Adanthar, I'm pretty convinced and I appreciate you taking the time to spell it out for me.

In hand #1, by checking the flop, you immediately give him the green light to steal the pot away from you. If you want him to think you're weak with AK, do it on a 2-8-Qr board, not a 9-J-Q board. You need to define your hand with a pot sized bet here. With half the deck killing you on the turn, you're giving the hand away here. Betting pot on the flop gives you info into his possible holdings, but check-calling a pot-sized bet on the turn gives you nothing, and costs you the same. Hand 2, I don't mind the limp here, gives you plenty of chances to manipulate the pot with position, and also gives you the chance to conceal a monster. Turning a flush is about the best you can expect, I mean, that is why you limped in with 2-3 isn't it?? No brainer raise here probably to 15,000. He could have a big heart, but then you want him in. A big flush is unlikely, he would need to get paid off and would go for the CR.

Then what's the point of calling the bet on the turn. Would he not have lost just as much had he bet the flop and was check-raised and folded? Freddie Deeb is precisely the type of player that will call in this situation with anything in order to set up a bluff on a later street as he loves to do. I think it's important to find do something to get an idea of what he's holding other than making crying calls on the turn and possibly river.

vs. KJs, OP is 80% to win, I'd take that.
vs. T9s, OP is 70% to win, not bad.
vs. TT, OP is 76% to win, I like those odds.
vs. JTs, OP is 67% to win.
So, by checking behind, we still have no idea where OP is in relation to Mr. Deeb. Keep checking.

[renodoc]

How bout some results david?

[Jason Strasser]

Hand 1 I like your line and I think you fold river unless you have some sort or reason to consider not folding it.

Hand 2 I like to call and evaluate the river. Sure, your hand is vulnerable, but I don't want to chase him off a hand that can pay me off. Plus it's kinda a tricky play, I think most people would expect you to raise a flush. I'm exhausted now and can't think that straight (exams) but I think you'll be better off in the long run calling this turn and proceeding.

[sirio11]

[ QUOTE ]
How bout some results david?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hand #1:

After doing some analisis, and hearing Freddie talk; I folded.

Hand#2:

I was going to push the turn (I had about 19k), but decided to just call the 5k.

River was Q /images/graemlins/club.gif and Freddie bet 6k into the 16k pot and I couldn't find a fold and called the 6k leaving myself with 8k.

He showed me the nut flush with A /images/graemlins/heart.gif4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

[bugstud]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1 I like your line and I think you fold river unless you have some sort or reason to consider not folding it.

Hand 2 I like to call and evaluate the river. Sure, your hand is vulnerable, but I don't want to chase him off a hand that can pay me off. Plus it's kinda a tricky play, I think most people would expect you to raise a flush. I'm exhausted now and can't think that straight (exams) but I think you'll be better off in the long run calling this turn and proceeding.

[/ QUOTE ]

stud

[ChrisW]

Hand #1 is fascinating. It seems that you took the standard line, but is there any case for raising the turn (say 5K)? The way this hand was played, it looks like you are committed to calling down if a blank comes on the river. Thus, if your plan is to fold when a heart comes (what were you doing if an 8 came?), you are unlikely to win any more chips from a river bluff.

So, maybe you could make a blocking bet now, which would also protect your hand against e.g. TT with a heart. Perhaps a turn raise isn't that believable given the preflop reraise and flop check. Would Deeb risk his tournament on that read?

Hands like this make me wonder about the value of random plays such as checking the top set in position on this flop. Sure, many scare cards could make your life difficult, but if a blank hits, perhaps an aggressive player will lose his whole stack trying to take you off the hand because he "knows" you can't hold QQQ on a draw-heavy board and thus are likely to fold under serious pressure. So, you check the flop and raise the blank turn, and he puts you on some blocking bet and repops you, etc.