$11: am i sloppy?

[liucipher]

I just started 4-tabling. No reads.

Am I:
a.) a little girl for not wanting to play AK out of position
b.) brilliant for somehow dodging the slowplayed AA
c.) your standard 2+2er looking for better edges later on

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP2 (t730)
MP3 (t800)
CO (t730)
Button (t790)
SB (t785)
Hero (t800)
UTG (t730)
UTG+1 (t715)
UTG+2 (t800)
MP1 (t1120)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises to t30</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises to t100</font>, 3 folds, Hero folds

[ilya]

I would call.

Also, can we go easier on using women as a metaphor for weakness/cowardice. It's getting a bit out of control here in STT.

[wuwei]

Folding is fine for 1/8th of your stack oop. I fold or shove depending on the reraiser.

[handsome]

Calling is a leak.

[liucipher]

Sorry for the anti-women remarks. Threads titled like that get more responses /images/graemlins/wink.gif

I considered calling, but didn't like 1.) being out of position 2.) t100 3.) UTG+1 left to act. Is that horrendous or neutral?

Say I folded. If UTG+1 pushes and MP3 calls, it is high time to get the fizz00k out of there right?

[Mvcode3]

[ QUOTE ]
Folding is fine for 1/8th of your stack oop. I fold or shove depending on the reraiser.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you shove what are you going to get called by? AA-KK-QQ
mabye JJ. Does AQ or worse call here? If your are called at best you are on the wrong side of a coin flip.

[microbet]

In the $109s I would guess about 1/2 the players call with AQ. Maybe 1/3.

[wuwei]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Folding is fine for 1/8th of your stack oop. I fold or shove depending on the reraiser.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you shove what are you going to get called by? AA-KK-QQ
mabye JJ. Does AQ or worse call here? If your are called at best you are on the wrong side of a coin flip.

[/ QUOTE ]

JJ doesn't fold here very often. Hell, I don't fold JJ here 50% of the time. Yes, you get called by all kinds of hands that would suprise you. Don't forget we hold an A and K, so AA and KK are less likely.

[Mvcode3]

[ QUOTE ]
In the $109s I would guess about 1/2 the players call with AQ. Maybe 1/3.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would you call or push here then?

[Postiga]

Yep I see people calling this with 77 up in the 109s, plus AT up. You're definitely either raising or folding. You can't call in the 800 chip structure. I'd probably fold most of the time.

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
Calling is a leak.

[/ QUOTE ]

You think so? I do think it's close but

1, most likely preflop action is that the original raiser calls, so you end up with 2:1 to flop a pair. which seems good enough, cos

2, you're basically a lock at the $11s to stack one or both opponents if they flop a worse Ace or King with you.

[Mvcode3]

I think that calling is a better play then pushing.

[microbet]

I think it's pretty marginal anyway you look at it. I like the push better if there is more dead money. I think you can profitably call here, but Postiga might be right here and maybe that is for 1000+ chip games.

Maybe you can fold it in an $11 or a $6, waiting for a better spot later. I'm pretty sure you can fold in a $6 and I'm positive it's a good fold in a play money game (not that that is relevant except that it makes me confident that it is possible folding is correct)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Folding is fine for 1/8th of your stack oop. I fold or shove depending on the reraiser.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you shove what are you going to get called by? AA-KK-QQ
mabye JJ. Does AQ or worse call here? If your are called at best you are on the wrong side of a coin flip.

[/ QUOTE ]

You WILL ALMOST ALWAYS be called by A5+,KJ+,and sometimes even QJ at the $11s early on. Never underestimate the thinking (or lack thereof) of the $11ers. They see that move and immediatly think low pair. You wouldn't believe the junk their willing to call with.








And yes, some do reraise to 100 with A5.

[Hendricks433]

uhhh /images/graemlins/confused.gif I think calling is bad IMO. Calling off 1/8th if your stack early with no Pair. Eh IDK. 2+2ers edge is later in the game where you need chips. I save my chips for later or push. In the $11's I say its 50/50 cause theyll call with crap.

Push, I do this and get called by AT-AQ (and sometimes KQ) so often that you wouldn't believe it. This is an $11. Most of these people are morons. Yes, sometimes you see AA or KK, but that's just the way it goes. I'd say folding is definately -ev. Besides, at this point you either get to more than double up or bust early and can fire up another one. Also, don't forget that sometimes you add a not insignificant 155 chips to your stack.

Will

P.S. Please don't denigrate women just to get more responses. It's offensive.

[durron597]

Calling is horrible, period. You are right about playing AKo out of position.

This is an 11. You get called by worse hands way often enough to make this a profitable push. So do it.

[yabastid]

I agree with durron, a push is probably fine. You could so easily be up against at best KQs. Calling is awful, but I wouldn't worry too much about finding a fold here either.

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with durron, a push is probably fine. You could so easily be up against at best KQs. Calling is awful, but I wouldn't worry too much about finding a fold here either.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is so terrible about calling!! You don't have to race pairs. You can get away if there's a re-raise and call. You still win lots from AT-AQ cos lots of times they will fold preflop if you push, but if they hit their Ace, they will give you their stack for sure. You will bust out way less often.

[fluorescenthippo]

fold or push. i would lean towards folding

[microbet]

I guess I answered this in the wrong place. I'm blaming that on senility and the forum update.

See my reply to the OP ^ up there somewhere.

[tigerite]

[ QUOTE ]
I think it's pretty marginal anyway you look at it. I like the push better if there is more dead money. I think you can profitably call here, but Postiga might be right here and maybe that is for 1000+ chip games.

Maybe you can fold it in an $11 or a $6, waiting for a better spot later. I'm pretty sure you can fold in a $6 and I'm positive it's a good fold in a play money game (not that that is relevant except that it makes me confident that it is possible folding is correct)

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with pretty much all that. Here, in this level of tournament, I'd probably push. By the way, I don't call AQo here, that's for sure, in a $109! I doubt I'd even call it for a normal raise OOP. I might (MIGHT) on the button. But for t100? No way.

[SammyKid11]

I think a push here is fine. Pushing:
1) Eliminates the anti-value of your bad position.
2) Greatly increases the chances you're only up against one opponent (which with a hand like AKo is definitely better).
3) Ensures that your AK sees all five board cards (good).
4) Creates a very decent chance that you will take the pot down right there (always nice).
5) Punishes anyone dumb enough to call down with Ace-rag.
6) Keeps someone with Ace-rag from bluffing you off your hand with their position.

Also, remember that the "re-raiser" in this case was only reraising a min-raiser...at an 11 it could easily be a donk re-raise -- or at any level it could certainly be nothing more than an isolation raise with something like 55 that he'll often fold or AJs which you might get a call out of.

POOOOOOOSSSSSSHHHHHH!

And FWIW, I agree with ilya in terms of a cessation of usage of female body parts as an analogy to weakness. I think Annie Duke just might take offense and proceed to pummel you on a poker table just to prove that she was much less scared than you.

[EnderFFX]

This is the $11. AK-A2 calls (yes i've seen A2 call) Any pair sometimes calls, KQs calls, hell I've seen JTs call.

In the $11's you can push this because you'll often be called by hands that you dominate. Does that make it a fold in the $55's and up? Because I've been very confused in situations like this in the $55's, having no idea whether I should fold, call or push.

[Mr_J]

[ QUOTE ]
2+2ers edge is later in the game where you need chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

Building a stack from dead money will give you chips for when you need them.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
2+2ers edge is later in the game where you need chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

Building a stack from dead money will give you chips for when you need them.

[/ QUOTE ]

or of course you could have changed that to:

bad 2+2ers' edges are later in the game.

good 2+2ers lean to have an edge all the time.

c

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
You can get away if there's a re-raise and call. You still win lots from AT-AQ cos lots of times they will fold preflop if you push

[/ QUOTE ]

Have you played the same 11s that I have ?!?!?! What about the times they whiff the flop and check fold it, and you didn't get your whole stack as a 70% fav?

[BAK]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, can we go easier on using women as a metaphor for weakness/cowardice. It's getting a bit out of control here in STT.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you Ilya, I appreciate the sentiment here. That was my first reaction as well.

On the otherhand, it is seriously +EV for us that some of you guys think this way. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[wuwei]

[ QUOTE ]
bad 2+2ers' edges are later in the game.

good 2+2ers lean to have an edge all the time.

c

[/ QUOTE ]

BOW DOWN!!!

[microbet]

[ QUOTE ]
By the way, I don't call AQo here, that's for sure, in a $109! I doubt I'd even call it for a normal raise OOP. I might (MIGHT) on the button. But for t100? No way.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know you don't dude. It would be a bad call. I actually looked through a few HHs to see if I could find a similar situation. In the 5 $109 HHs I looked through there were to calls of early reraise pushes. One was AQ and the other was 44. Those were the guys that called the pushes.

[tigerite]

Ah, the donksville. Like last night when some muppet decided to re-raise me all-in on the 1st or 2nd hand with 66. Shame for him that I had AA.

[microbet]

I can't believe I freakin wrote 'to' for 'two'. Tomorrow I'm going to have to sit in 1st grade with my daughter.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
Ah, the donksville. Like last night when some muppet decided to re-raise me all-in on the 1st or 2nd hand with 66. Shame for him that I had AA. Shame for me that the flop was 66J, and shame for him that the turn was an A and the river was an A.

[/ QUOTE ]

Rivering quads over quads is fun.