Blind Battles: Hand #5

[TStoneMBD]

BB is a tough, solid, tricky player. Metagame counts and you play alot together.

Everyone folds to you in the SB and you raise A9o. He calls.

Flop is 7T3 twotone.

You bet, he calls.

Turn is a 3o

You bet, he raises


what line(s) do you take and what frequencies do you take them?

[Spicymoose]

I think I fold the majority of the time. He could be semi-bluffing his 89 or flush draw though, so perhaps 3-bet and lead the river a small % of the time. this will keep him from semi-bluffing as much also. I dunno, 20%?

[DeathDonkey]

I fold maybe 10%, I call and check/fold unimproved like 5%. I call and improve and call again every time I called the turn and donk if I catch an ace. The rest (big percent) of the time I call and check/call the river unimproved.

-DeathDonkey

[mmcd]

I screwplay the turn here pretty often. I doubt a tough player is calling the flop to either fold the turn unimproved or call the turn with some sort of draw, so bet/bet with A-high is a pretty dumb line unless you think his turn raise will be a move often enough that you're willing to pay the 3bb to get it to showdown. I don't find myself in this spot too often so I can't really give you my frequencies here, but I'd call more often than I'd 3-bet, and I'd 3-bet more often than I'd fold unless he's the type that virtually always waits until the turn to raise a pair in a blind battle then I'd reverse the order.

[oreogod]

maybe its just me, but wouldnt a solid/tricky player make a move on a two tone flop with a pair expecting u to call him down w/ high cards more because he knows that you might think he's making moves w/ a draw/gutshot. He's knows he is far more likely to get a call down by making a move on a flush board. On the turn, he could easily be raising the draw, making a move etc. I think any pair is going to be putting some action in on the flop.

you said he's tough and tricky. so depending on whats going on fold 10-20 percent. 3bet 20-40 percent. Call the rest of the time, c/c a good amount of rivers.

Am I close, wrong/right? Just my ideas.

[Victor]

wow, i cant believe all you guys are calling down here. if i notice that i am gonna be raising the turn with any pair against you super often in these situations.

[TStoneMBD]

if i notice that you fold ace high to this turn raise every time i am gonna be raising the turn with bluffs against you super often in these situations.

[oreogod]

beat me to it.

[Victor]

[ QUOTE ]
if i notice that you fold ace high to this turn raise every time i am gonna be raising the turn with bluffs against you super often in these situations.

[/ QUOTE ]

you dont know what i have.

people are advocating calling down 90% of the time. thats absurd. 40-50 is plenty high enough to dissuade shots. its unrecognizable.

[Victor]

another thing is there is a huge inconsistency between this post and your other one where everyone says to check/fold the river with a5o. i want to know wtf is going on here. how is this situaion, where we are calling 2bets to see showdown better than 1bet.

[oreogod]

and if u had a pair I see no reason to not go crazy on this flop. There should be no reason to be afraid of getting 3bet, plus u are more likely to get a call down. why call and raise turn? I understand it to mix things up, or if the board was rainbow, or maybe if u have a 3...but with any made hand I think playing the flop hard is much better. Hence the reason more ppl want to call down. Its more likely hes making a move on this board. Unless Im way off base anyway.

EDIT: unless u think you are more likely to get a call down from a turn raise w/ a worse hand...thats the only time I see raising turn as being better with a made hand.

[Surfbullet]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if i notice that you fold ace high to this turn raise every time i am gonna be raising the turn with bluffs against you super often in these situations.

[/ QUOTE ]

you dont know what i have.

people are advocating calling down 90% of the time. thats absurd. 40-50 is plenty high enough to dissuade shots. its unrecognizable.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. And call down AK-A9 unpaired and muck A8-A2 unpaired for randomization, instead of flipping a coin with whatever Ax you have at the time.

Surf

[Victor]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if i notice that you fold ace high to this turn raise every time i am gonna be raising the turn with bluffs against you super often in these situations.

[/ QUOTE ]

you dont know what i have.

people are advocating calling down 90% of the time. thats absurd. 40-50 is plenty high enough to dissuade shots. its unrecognizable.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. And call down AK-A9 unpaired and muck A8-A2 unpaired for randomization, instead of flipping a coin with whatever Ax you have at the time.

Surf

[/ QUOTE ]

tru dat!

[Victor]

[ QUOTE ]
why call and raise turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

bc i have a note that says this, "idiot calls down a-high hu"

[oreogod]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
why call and raise turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

bc i have a note that says this, "idiot calls down a-high hu"

[/ QUOTE ]

tactful. Im sure most appreciate your comment. also, unless u forgot, there are many times calling down w/ A-high in a HU match is a good thing.

[TStoneMBD]

hi victor. i agree with you that calling down 90% is way too high. i also think folding every time is clearly wrong. either line is very exploitable by a good opponent and if youre always folding this to a turn raise then a good player has you by the balls. always calling down isnt as exploitable because it will still be correct for the opponent to commonly bluffraise you even if he knows youre calling down ace high because your preflop opening range should be very wide and he will often catch you with jack high. if you have opponents who know youll fold this turn quite often with ace high yet never bluffraise, youre in a very good game.

this situation is entirely a feel situation as to how often the opponent is making a play on you or not. i usually fold this turn myself especially if i dont feel like im getting played with but often times i do and will often call down. im more or less looking for frequencies because that is the correct answer to this problem. this is not a black and white problem, its a problem of frequencies. i may not agree with the frequencies given by some replies but at least they realized its a frequency problem.

[Victor]

heres another thing: if we are so adamant to show down our medium ace high what is wrong with check calling down on the turn?

[Victor]

i put the frequencies at 40-50 in a previous post. that may even be too high.

you still havent addressed the discrepancy between this one and the a5o.

[TStoneMBD]

yah thats a really good line. so is mmcd's screwplay. i might start taking those lines more often on this board. bet/bet might be bad as mmcd says.

[mperich]

The situation is TONS different. I think the main difference here would be what your opponent is expecting you to do. In hand the a5 hand he probably wants a call, since ur hand is pretty transparent (your hand range is small and he knows this, thus it's easier to figure out his hand range based on what you know he knows)

In this hand your hand range is very wide. This in turn makes his range a lot larger so there are more options. There are tons of hands you cant call down with here and he knows that, so his bluffing frequency is much larger. I'd say I on the turn im calling 75 folding 25, and then if he fires the river I am probably folding maybe 20% of the time. I think in a vacuum I fold the river more, but since metagame counts I don't.

I like this series tstone keep em coming.

-Mike

[Victor]

your post makes sense however i dont understand why you fold the river (assuming a blank) after calling the turn.

[mperich]

Because if there was no metagame a river bet by him with no pair is -ev, and if he is tough and solid he knows this. The only thing you are folding is a busted flush draw. Also I think he is free showdowning with an ace some of the time (i would often play an ace exactly like this on this board)

-Mike

[dave44]

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if i notice that you fold ace high to this turn raise every time i am gonna be raising the turn with bluffs against you super often in these situations.

[/ QUOTE ]

you dont know what i have.

people are advocating calling down 90% of the time. thats absurd. 40-50 is plenty high enough to dissuade shots. its unrecognizable.

[/ QUOTE ]
This discrepancy could be due to a difference in looseness of range at this point in the hand. Personally, I tend to continuation bet this turn with most of the hands I'd raise preflop and bet the flop with. After I bet this turn, I could still have all sorts of garbage. If I didn't take A9o to showdown here, an aggressive player could own me.

If you are playing a tighter range of hands this way, then you don't necessarily have to take A9 to showdown.

[mscags]

Sometimes on flops like these I like to try and checkraise the turn because it feels like you get raised almost always in these situations. If he folds a pair great, if he doesn't you still have some outs, if he three bets, I think its an easy fold unless villian is super tricky.

[cartman]

Paying 3 turn/river bets looks like an awfully expensive proposition to me. If you can't trust him eough to fold to his turn raise, then I think you either need to go into check-call mode on the turn or bet-call the turn and fold if he bets the river. Where am I wrong?

Thanks,
Cartman

[poker1O1]

[ QUOTE ]
I screwplay the turn here pretty often. I doubt a tough player is calling the flop to either fold the turn unimproved or call the turn with some sort of draw, so bet/bet with A-high is a pretty dumb line unless you think his turn raise will be a move often enough that you're willing to pay the 3bb to get it to showdown. I don't find myself in this spot too often so I can't really give you my frequencies here, but I'd call more often than I'd 3-bet, and I'd 3-bet more often than I'd fold unless he's the type that virtually always waits until the turn to raise a pair in a blind battle then I'd reverse the order.

[/ QUOTE ]
What's wrong with a turn c/c and river c/c?

[Surfbullet]

[ QUOTE ]
yah thats a really good line. so is mmcd's screwplay. i might start taking those lines more often on this board. bet/bet might be bad as mmcd says.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. How often is he flatcalling flop without the intention of moving you off the hand in some way (raising when you bet, betting when you check)...because any decent draw he would be expected to semibluff IP. Most pairs will raise to protect b/c there are so many potential overcards, and it's not like he's going to be drawing to a 6-outer in a tiny pot.

Betting the turn makes you throw away a BB most times IMO...both our ranges are so wide that I don't mind c/c'ing down, provided we also do this with some decent made hands, and screwplay sufficiently that he can't pin us to a weak (A-hi, baby pair) type hand when we take the bet, call, call line.

Surf