Curtains Hand#Horsd'oeuvres

[ilya]

HERO pushed last button for 6xbb at 75/150 blinds, 6-handed.


Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 1: A ( $1275 )
Seat 2: HERO ( $940 )
Seat 6: B ( $2255 )
Seat 7: C ( $3290 )
Seat 10: E ( $2240 )

Level:6
Blinds(100/200)

Dealt to HERO [ 8c 7d ]

E folds.
A folds.

HERO....?

[KingDan]

Easy push IMO.

[ QUOTE ]
Easy push IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]
What makes it easy?

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
HERO pushed last button for 6xbb at 75/150 blinds, 6-handed.


Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 1: A ( $1275 )
Seat 2: HERO ( $940 )
Seat 6: B ( $2255 )
Seat 7: C ( $3290 )
Seat 10: E ( $2240 )

Level:6
Blinds(100/200)

Dealt to HERO [ 8c 7d ]

E folds.
A folds.

HERO....?

[/ QUOTE ]

SNGPT it. It's a push.

[microbet]

I think it is generally a push, but not against all SB and BBs.

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
HERO pushed last button for 6xbb at 75/150 blinds, 6-handed.


Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 1: A ( $1275 )
Seat 2: HERO ( $940 )
Seat 6: B ( $2255 )
Seat 7: C ( $3290 )
Seat 10: E ( $2240 )

Level:6
Blinds(100/200)

Dealt to HERO [ 8c 7d ]

E folds.
A folds.

HERO....?

[/ QUOTE ]

SNGPT it. It's a push.

[/ QUOTE ]

I did before posting the hand, of course....SNGPT says it's anywhere from a clear push to a clear fold depending on what ranges you give it.

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
HERO pushed last button for 6xbb at 75/150 blinds, 6-handed.


Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 1: A ( $1275 )
Seat 2: HERO ( $940 )
Seat 6: B ( $2255 )
Seat 7: C ( $3290 )
Seat 10: E ( $2240 )

Level:6
Blinds(100/200)

Dealt to HERO [ 8c 7d ]

E folds.
A folds.

HERO....?

[/ QUOTE ]

SNGPT it. It's a push.

[/ QUOTE ]

I did before posting the hand, of course....SNGPT says it's anywhere from a clear push to a clear fold depending on what ranges you give it.

[/ QUOTE ]

To get it to say it's a fold you have to be putting in ridiculous ranges that don't make sense without an uber-read.

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
HERO pushed last button for 6xbb at 75/150 blinds, 6-handed.


Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 1: A ( $1275 )
Seat 2: HERO ( $940 )
Seat 6: B ( $2255 )
Seat 7: C ( $3290 )
Seat 10: E ( $2240 )

Level:6
Blinds(100/200)

Dealt to HERO [ 8c 7d ]

E folds.
A folds.

HERO....?

[/ QUOTE ]

SNGPT it. It's a push.

[/ QUOTE ]

I did before posting the hand, of course....SNGPT says it's anywhere from a clear push to a clear fold depending on what ranges you give it.

[/ QUOTE ]

To get it to say it's a fold you have to be putting in ridiculous ranges that don't make sense without an uber-read.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dunno. Putting SB on Loose and BB on 30% gives -0.1%. 30% doesn't seem especially ridiculous to me. More like average-ish for a big stack. After all, if BB thinks Hero is pushing with even just the top 70% of hands, he should still call with the top 47% or so. At the $200s I'd expect most opponents who make it to the bubble to be at least vaguely/intuitively aware of the adjustments.

[microbet]

Pushing 70% would be crazy though.

You don't have to go crazy to make this close to neutral though. Just having them both be pretty loose is enough. SB calling 15% and BB calling 20% does it.

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
HERO pushed last button for 6xbb at 75/150 blinds, 6-handed.


Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 1: A ( $1275 )
Seat 2: HERO ( $940 )
Seat 6: B ( $2255 )
Seat 7: C ( $3290 )
Seat 10: E ( $2240 )

Level:6
Blinds(100/200)

Dealt to HERO [ 8c 7d ]

E folds.
A folds.

HERO....?

[/ QUOTE ]

SNGPT it. It's a push.

[/ QUOTE ]

I did before posting the hand, of course....SNGPT says it's anywhere from a clear push to a clear fold depending on what ranges you give it.

[/ QUOTE ]

To get it to say it's a fold you have to be putting in ridiculous ranges that don't make sense without an uber-read.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dunno. Putting SB on Loose and BB on 30% gives -0.1%. 30% doesn't seem especially ridiculous to me. More like average-ish for a big stack. After all, if BB thinks Hero is pushing with even just the top 70% of hands, he should still call with the top 47% or so. At the $200s I'd expect most opponents who make it to the bubble to be at least vaguely/intuitively aware of the adjustments.

[/ QUOTE ]

30% includes K4s. That's ridiculous. For them to start calling with Q and J high, you have to have a god awful image or they have to be a very special opponent. I'm not saying I've never made calls like this with Q high, but a typical player is almost never doing so. What I'm saying is that if you really play around with ranges and stretch it out you can get it around EV neutral, but the ranges you assign are the extreme limits to their calling hands and often they'll be much tighter. If it's either neutral EV or +EV... you get the picture.

In the past few posts of yours you seem to be giving villain's too much credit to illustrate a specific point. Yes, the situations you've described happen, but they are not the norm and can't be treated as such in analysis. No knock on you, I really like your posts because they're so thoughtful; just an observation.

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
Pushing 70% would be crazy though.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're pushing SNGPT-70%, you're pushing 87o. The range is:

22+,A2+,K2+,Q2+,J2+,T5o+,T2s+,96o+,94s+,87o,85s+,7 5s+.

But you only need to be pushing 45% (22+,A2+,K2+,Q6o+,Q2s+,J9o+,J7s+,T8s+) to make it correct for BB to call with top 30% (and for SB to call with top 26%).

I understand that of course most of your opponents aren't calling optimally, but the margin seems to be kinda wide here.

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]

In the past few posts of yours you seem to be giving villain's too much credit to illustrate a specific point. Yes, the situations you've described happen, but they are not the norm and can't be treated as such in analysis. No knock on you, I really like your posts because they're so thoughtful; just an observation.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that's generally quite a fair point; this is a serious leak I have & it's hard for me to compensate for it to the right degree because it's kinda central to my personality. In this spot though I just don't know how much credit I should give to the Villains as I've never once in my life played a $200 SnG. Or even a $100, for that matter.

[curtains]

I believe pushing is correct and that most of the time it will be slightly +EV. If I know the BB very well or play with them a lot and they understand that I will push too much, I may fold instead, because now they will call me with crap like K4o without much thought, thus making my push clearly -ev. In any case even if it was neutral EV, Im going to be paying a blind in a few hands and that will be clearly -EV as well, so generally I don't think you need a very large advantage to make such moves.

[ilya]

HERO folds.

/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
HERO folds.

/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Haha. Nh.

Unfortunately for curtains, this will obviously happen from time to time. Mildly amusing though.

[curtains]

No, the reason I folded is because I knew the BB well, and they would easily call with a loose enough range to make pushing -EV. BB was a 2+2er, who Ive talked to about sit and gos extensively. I just found this out now. I suppose this will happen from time to time as long as people don't post actual names with the HH.

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
No, the reason I folded is because I knew the BB well, and they would easily call with a loose enough range to make pushing -EV. BB was a 2+2er, who Ive talked to about sit and gos extensively. I just found this out now. I suppose this will happen from time to time as long as people don't post actual names with the HH.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately for bigt439, this will obviously happen from time to time. Mildly amusing though.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
No, the reason I folded is because I knew the BB well, and they would easily call with a loose enough range to make pushing -EV. BB was a 2+2er, who Ive talked to about sit and gos extensively. I just found this out now. I suppose this will happen from time to time as long as people don't post actual names with the HH.

[/ QUOTE ]

Out of curiousity, given the circumstances you just described, can you describe a situation where he would not call with K4o? (Let's assume your only variable in this instance is changing his stack size. Everything about your situation is static.) <font color="white"> I have some guesses, just hoping you'll answer. </font>

[curtains]

I'm not quite sure what you mean. It's possible that if I make it clear that Im not pushing with stuff like 87o here, that in the future they will fold with stuff like K4o. I just can't be pushing on this guy every time like clockwork, or Im going to get looked up.

[Scuba Chuck]

Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 1: A ( $1275 )
Seat 2: HERO ( $940 )
Seat 6: B ( $3000 )
Seat 7: C ( $1700 )
Seat 10: E ( $3085)

do you think he would fold K4o in this spot?

[curtains]

umm, no...getting almost 2-1....I dont believe so, but maybe. I beleive that against my range its still correct for him to call. On second thought, maybe he should fold, as pushing stuff like Q3o isnt very appealing for me.