Your Move

[andyfox]

30-60 or 40-80, you can't remember, the stakes had been changed somewhere during the game.

On your left is a player who hasn't played a hand in two rounds. You don't know him, but he seems tightish.

On your big blind, this player raises. There's a cold call from a poor player and then a 3-bet from a player from who a 3-bet means very little if anything. There's a cold-call of the 3-bet from another player from whom that means even less.

You decide to call with Kd-Qd because you have ended up with a straight on the turn or river 3 or 4 times already and they've all held up and you have too many chips to carry to the window. The original UTG raiser calls too, as does the original cold-caller and, 5 handed for 3 bets each, you see a flop of K-Q-x rainbow.

You bet and UTG raises. Everyone else folds and you 3-bet. Your opponent says "stop it" and calls. You both laugh.

The turn is an off-suit Ace.

Your move. Do you

A) Stop it?
B) Bet it?
C) ??????

[elysium]

hi andy
andy i don't like calling the three bet pre-flop here.
awww, now look!! get out of this thing andy. just look at this mess. do not call three bets pre-flop with KQs.

[Ed S.]

Sure in a typical game I don't like calling a three bet here either but with what he has describe here there is no reason to really fold. But I would watch out for the "tightish" player who hasn't played a hand in 2 orbits. Now on the turn I would have to Either bet or check. I would favor betting here to see what comes from it. Then work from there.


Ed S.

[Zeno]

Is this one of the "your either way ahead or way behind type hands?".

C. Check call on the turn. (sort of a "stop it")

Then check call the river, or bet out, depending on the card. Maybe the river card will add more chips to your stack and make going to the window all the more difficult. Hope you hit a home run.

-Zeno

[PokerBabe(aka)]

Hi Andy. Well, the most important thing is that you have fun while playing, eh? If you have too many chips cuz you are "running good", then your preflop call isn't so awful, is it? What's another few bets when your "stacking and racking"? /forums/images/icons/grin.gif Even the Babe has made such loose calls 2 or 3 times /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

Ok, so, we know that in this instance you are motivated by fun not profit. What's your move when the guy can hardly contain himself from hysterics while saying "stop it"? You can't stop it, since I think you are ahead. Surely, your opponent would have 4 bet this troop of loose gooses btf with KK or AA. Could he have a mere set of Queens and just call your 3rd bet on the flop? Nope, don't think so. I think he would 4 bet and then say "stop it" if he had a set here. What possible motivation does he have to simply call if he is ahead. The pot is huge now.

The Ace on the turn does "stop it" for me. Now I check this dreadful card and my next move is probably racking up and having a nice glass of wine with my whine.

LGPG, Babe /forums/images/icons/heart.gif

[baseball38]

Check it!

baseball38 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif

[leon]

Bet it. Fold to a raise. Smile at a call. Bet the river dark.

Leon

[Philuva]

I would bet and fold to a raise. If he just calls, I would probably check-call the river.

[Mikey]

Check, after your opponnent bets, ask him if he's sure and then call.

River, Check, after your opponnent bets, say....."Ok I have to see it, show me the AK" and call.

This hand really cries out AK.

I mean what else could he possibly have to raise the flop with all those people behind him and then not reraise you again.

I think you want to believe you're up against AK, but I know how you feel, sometimes you just don't want to believe it.

I hate folding in this spot myself with the pot so huge, but what the hell can you do.

He didn't cap preflop either.
And he's tightish.
Logic tells us there is nothing he can possibly have but AKo.

You know what you can do for fun, this is what I like to do.

You know the suits of your hands both Diamonds right.
and you can see the suits of the cards on board.
Try to determine with accuracy which Ace and which King he's holding.

Odds are they are offsuit since he didn't cap.
Then as you call the river announce his hand and as he turns it up to show you it watch how the table is in awe of you.

Also if anyone asks you what you have after you muck, tell them AQ, they'll sympathize with you and forgive you for not mucking the hand.

-OR-

this guy hasn't picked up a hand in HOW LONG?
What are the chances he's fooling around?
Induce bluffs on both the turn and river and see what he's got.


This game is complicated isn't it???!!!

[bruce]

Pray that I am not drawing dead and I get there or that my opponent got out of line with pocket Jacks. Because of the pot size and this being California I would check and
call the turn and river. No way would I fold unless my
opponent showed me his two cards.

Bruce

[Georgia Peach]

Well, having been chastised by Dynasty for assuming logic, I would say hesitantly that a very good possibility exists that you are up against a set or an UTG with AK in the hole.

But, the UTG might have also gotten bored and decided to jump into the action. Hoping all the while that bet/raises would be interpreted as a monster hand from a tight/aggressive player.

I would say check/raise if possible to see if he comes back over the top. If he checks, then all depends on the river card.

[Philuva]

"I would say check/raise if possible to see if he comes back over the top"

I am not sure what a check-raise would accomplish. As worse hands will fold and better hands will call or 3-bet you.

That's an expensive way to figure out if your ahead or not.
You would be better off just check-calling.

[andyfox]

I agree with those who said the pre-flop call of two more bets was foolhardy.

Now you bet the flop and UTG raises with all those players still behind him. Pocket aces or kings? Not likely since he didn't cap pre-flop and you have one of the kings. Pocket jacks or smaller? No, not with you betting into all those players. A-J or A-T? I suppose possible, but again raising the flop with those players behind seems unlikely.

A-Q? Quite possible, perhaps A-Qs with a backdoor flush draw on the flop. A-K? Yes, the most likely hand.

When the ace hits, you say, "OK, I'll stop it now." Your opponent laughs and bets and you fold. If you had it to do over again, you would have bet and folded to a raise. If called, you would check-call the river.

You got exactly what you deserved for calling an UTG raise and a 3-bet for 2 more bets with K-Q: a few laughs, fewer chips, and a nagging suspicion that, though unlikely, it's not impossible you folded the best hand.

[andyfox]

"This hand really cries out AK.

I mean what else could he possibly have to raise the flop with all those people behind him and then not reraise you again."

Bingo.

FWIW, he claimed he had A-Qs and his left-hand-hand neighbor said he saw an ace and a face.

[Louie Landale]

Bingo.

Except for the fact that if you don't know what the stakes are you are probably too tired to play. And except for the fact that the reason calling PF is a mistake is because the UTG raiser is SURE to have that hand dominated. And except for the fact that if you want to take less chips to the cage you should [1] change the color, or [2] call him down.

- Louie

[bad beetz]

I don't know what the proper action on the turn is, but I do think one thing: check/calling is better than bet/folding to a raise. here's why:


1. Yes, almost every hand he could have beats you on the turn but you are likely drawing live to 2 outs because he doesn't have KK or AA.
2. Check/calling lets you see that next card for the same price as bet/folding.
3. He COULD have KJs which is unlikely, but again, the pot is big. Also, KJs is drawing dead so why try and push him off it on the turn.
4. JJ is unlikely, but again, it's drawing thin and why discourage it from betting.
5. The pot is very big and heads up, you can't be kicked out of the pot by checking and then being leveraged out.

I like check/call, check/call or check/fold. I think they are VERY close.

I like both options better than bet/fold

[skp]

Checkfold sounds about right.

But at the table, I would probably checkcall twice. The pot is too big (23 bets after he bets the turn). You have yet to see this guy turn over a hand. Pay him off and get a read on him. Who knows...maybe he is capitalizing on his tight image by raising with AJ,AT on the flop. After all, if he can raise with AQ (a 5 outer or less if someone has a King which he is bound to think is quite likely), he could do the same with AJ,AT which could give him more outs with the added bonus that 4 of those outs would be to the nuts (which he can't make with AQ).

Or, perhaps you fluke out on the river with your two outer if he does have Aces up.

Incidentally, I would probably call two more bets preflop out of the bb with KQs as you say that the 3 bettor doesn't need much to make it 3 bets. So, the danger of being dominated is lessened.

[Clarkmeister]

"You got exactly what you deserved for calling an UTG raise and a 3-bet for 2 more bets with K-Q"

Deserve has nothing to do with it.

[FishyWhale]

I would also say that he´s got AK, so I´d try to laugh a little bit more and check on turn, hoping that he also laughs and checks his AK (not too likely though).

[34TheTruth34]

[Diplomat]

Lots of places do, especially medium and small card rooms. It makes sense -- say everyone at a 20-40 table wants to play 30-60, and there is a big waiting list for 20-40. The easiest thing to do is to convert the current 20-40 game to 30-60, and open a new 20-40 game.

-Diplomat

[snakehead]

would it make any difference to any of you if andy's opponent were really a female who's nickname is big balls?

[andyfox]

. . .dammit.

[andyfox]

Everyone agreed to the change.

[M.B.E.]

"<font color="purple">Your opponent laughs and bets and you fold. If you had it to do over again, you would have bet and folded to a raise.</font color>"

Andy -- I'm curious about this; what would be the point of betting the turn? He's almost certainly got you beat and won't fold a better hand.