party 15/30- folded QQ preflop

[2ndGoat]

All players involved appear to be playing in line with their pt pf stats, but i dont have any other reads really.

38/13 (with otherwise poor stats) raises EMP.
32/12 (with otherwise reasonable stats) 3bets MP.
20/9 (with good stats all around) caps MP.

I look down a QQ on the button and muck it.

Thoughts?

2nd

[lozen]

I call. Laying down the third best hand preflop, Never. Cap could be Jacks a-k or a-q or many other hands.

Looks fairly neutral EV. There's a good chance two of them have AK/AQ/AJ thereby reducing the chance of an A falling and the other having a PP lower than QQ. You could call planning on folding to any A or K on the board.

[DiamondDave]

It's close. Had any of the other players involved in the hand been far out of line recently? If so, I'd be more likely to put the 20/9 on less than AA or KK and play the hand.

[Victor]

ive been dabbling in fullring the last couple days after like 300k hands at shorthanded and if you guys are folding qq preflop i am running away from this game as fast as possible.

[lil feller]

Interesting. The 38/13 2betting range is very wide here, certainly much wider then the standard 13% since he's opening in EMP. While the 32/12 may or may not have PT, i'm sure he's played enough to know that the PFR's standards are going to be a little bit lower, so his 3 betting range is also expanded beyond the 12%. The 20/9 probably has info on both players, and his range is expanded slightly, but not by much.

I'm pretty sure i'd call here, but not sure i'd like it...

lf

[poker1O1]

[ QUOTE ]
I call. Laying down the third best hand preflop, Never. Cap could be Jacks a-k or a-q or many other hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

[golferbrent]

Tough spot. I would need a lot of history against the 20/9 player to justify this play. I know it feels dirty calling 4 cold preflop, but the pot is going to be big and you could very easily have the best hand. MP could easily have the same stats that you do on the 2 LAGS in question and could be making this play with any number of hands. However, he could also be making this with a very narrow range of hands as well. I can't see how folding Q-Q preflop in a limit game is a good idea, but you might be able to convince me otherwise if you had strong read on MP.

[2ndGoat]

Thanks for the responses.

Didnt really have a strong read and didnt feel great about the play afterwards, even though 20/9 did turn over KK at showdown.

2nd

flop comes raggy and you're screwed probably. flop comes with an A or a K and you're screwed b/c you paid a lot to see your hand land in the muck.. i dont pay capped PF w/ QQ unless im the one doing the capping against LAG opponents.. the MP caps here.. its a good fold most of the time no matteer what he turns up.. all you have to do is know how good your decision is in the long run.. not the short term results.

[bigfishead]

My initial thought was this:

20/9er has poker tracker too and has no respect for the 2 fishies raiseing. He wants to isolate them from you among others and buy the button as well. His range of hands will be good but "wider than normal" for his cap bet. Including PP's as low as 8's and Ax's from A10s & AJ on up. As well as KQs, KJs.

I figure the fishies will have 1 ace tied up at least 40% of the time. And tight boy will have 1 tied up at least 50% of the time...maybe more.

All this tells me is I CC in a heartbeat, and play it postflop. Cold calling on the button makes the tight-boy go "uhoh" in all cases except when he has Aces and Kings, but he's a bit worried even with KK. No matter what the flop is, if it's 1 bet to me on the flop I am raiseing. Now if it comes back to me at 3-4 bets I can muck with anything less than a nut draw or a set.

Your probably ahead here over 75% of the time preflop. 20/9 is not ultra tight by any sense of the imagination. It shows selective agression in my eyes which broadens the "trickyness" factors a little thereby allowing him to 4 bet with 9's 10's etc believing himself to be way way ahead of the fishies in most cases.