Flop action that I've never seen before

[rkiray]

Paradise 3/6 game, about normal 35% seeing flop, a few aggressive players, some not so much, one huge fish in 2 seat, but he doesn't play this hand. He's the only one I have alot of data and notes on.

I'm in lmp, with AQo and an ep limps to me. I just call. Many times I raise with this, but I consider it marginal, slightly better position and I would raise. Button calls, sb folds, bb checks.

Flop : Qs8h4h

bet, raise, raise, cap. Everyone calls.

I can't remember ever being in a hand with only four players and everyone bets or raises.

Turn : 7h [Qs8h4h]

checked to me, I bet, button raises, eveyone calls. I don't mind the bet here, but I think I screwed up. Given the flop action I think I should have folded to the raise, but it's a big pot.

River : 3d [7h Qs8h4h]

BB now bets!! How could that card have helped him? I'm now completely confused, but I'm convinced I'm beat. EP folds, I fold, button calls.

Who won? How did I play?

[Your Mom]

If you are convinced you are beat, then fold on the flop when it comes back around. Otherwise, you have to call on the river if its only 1 bet, just because the pot is huge.

[lil']

Pre-flop, this is an easy raise, especially with one limper and you in LMP.
Flop - I was a little confused here. You 3 bet and the button capped? I think 3 betting is good, but when it is capped and all call, I think you need to improve or get out.
Turn - This card doesn't help you at all, and may very well have you drawing dead. I'd fold here.

This reminds me of the other hand you posted when you held on too long with TP/TK.

[rkiray]

Yeah,

At least I'm consistent. Like I said before, I didn't mind the turn bet, but a big part of it was to get information and I failed to act on the info (should have folded to the raise). Unfortunately I didn't have a lot of information on any of these players, but the game had been a little loose, and a bit aggressive. And I do believe acting in a slightly tight but very aggressive fashion is good in the long run (and I'm getting better about being tighter).

[rkiray]

LOL, sorry Mom, in general I really like your posts, but this one I totally disagree with. On the flop I really thought I had the best hand and didn't even think about folding. When I post the results you will see this is probably true. Since not everyone went to showdown I can't be positive. On the second issue, I've stated here many times, and have posted both hands and statistics that show one of my biggest weaknesses is that I have a lot of trouble folding on the river for one bet even when I know I'm beat. But this time it was just too obvious. My weakness showed up when I called the turn raise with really no way to improve to best hand.

[bernie]

preflop..

if they are reasonable behind you and will fold, id raise this. AQo just isnt that great multiway. how much better position do you need here? you have a lone limper to you and you can maybe knock out and capture the button. you can buy position. also, if youre not sure of the players this raise can help you in decisions on later hands on whether to raise or not. great place and time to test it.

flop... fine, but im wary. any indication prior that this is a loose aggressive table postflop?

turn...you have a heart? the bet is much better without all the flop action. what are they jamming the flop with? are these players that loose and aggressive to be jamming with anything that doesnt beat you here? it only takes one of em to have it. not sure how many times you bet the flop or if you capped it or anything. if you got another raise in on the flop, are betting the turn and get raised, you have a problem. (raising preflop also helps in hand reading later on. at least until you know the players much better and their tendencies. against unknowns, ill play it much more str8forward)

tough play without info on the players like if the button will raise a draw on the turn. but what else would he be raising? the less you know of his standards in this spot, it can get hairy.

id consider folding the turn, and it wouldnt be the first time i folded a winner.

b

[Your Mom]

You disagree with calling the river? Or you disagree with folding for 2 more bets on the flop? I'm not saying which is or isn't right - I'm merely stating my opinion that if you are going to fold this hand I think on the flop is a good time to do it. If you feel you have even a small chance of being good, then I think you afe obligated to call the river because of pot odds. I think this is totally player dependent. I was at a table today where c/r with 2nd and even 3rd pair were common on the flop. I guess the question is do you think raises on the flop and even the turn mean a stronger hand that top pair? Just wondering, did you still feel you had the best hand on the flop after it was capped?

[Ed Miller]

The preflop raise is not marginal... I would make it every time.

[Festus22]

Who won? How did I play?

I'd guess BB had a baby flush draw (6-3h?) and bet out on the flop and he called the cap when it got back to him. Perhaps he then was going to checkraise the turn but got concerned with the bet/raise and by a 4th heart undercutting him on the river so just called the 2 bet. When the 4th heart didn't fall on the river, he bet out.

I say BB took it down with a small flush.

[CrackerZack]

Who won? no clue. How did I play? not well. You want the button to fold preflop so you're always acting last and you want to limit the field. I like the flop 3-bet and turn bet. On the river I may make the crying call but I'm pretty sure the BB will show you the nut flush.

Note, you don't say if you have the Ah but I assume you don't since you're saying you should fold on the turn. I agree if you don't have a heart.

[MaxPower]

I think you need to fold to the raise on the turn (if you don't have the Ah). Good fold on the river though.

You should of course raise pre-flop. If it was AQs you could consider limping, but should still raise most of the time. Sorry for stating the obvious.

I'd say the BB had a non-nut flush, EP had KQ and the Button had a set.

[rkiray]

I disagree with both. Since I didn't have a huge amount of info on these players, I figured them for the normal over aggressive Paradise players. So I figured TPTK was good. But when I was raised on turn with 2 people in and 3 flush cards on the board, I should have folded then. Ends up the BB had a K high flush and button had a Q high flush. I don't understand why the BB played the way he did. BTW, I apolgize for the previous post. I'm not normally that mean, but something overtook me last night.

[rkiray]

I agree with most of your post. I probably should have raised preflop. I hadn't been at the table very long, and only knew one player. The raise probably would have given me an idea how they played. I didn't know if these guys would raise with a draw or not. Turns out they would. I definitely should have folded to the raise on the turn. It's always easier to analyze after the fact.

[rkiray]

Close, as posted above, he took it with a big heart.

[rkiray]

Nope, I didn't have a heart. And trust me, if I had A heart I would have jammed both turn and river.

[rkiray]

I found this post interesting. Why limp with AQs but raise with AQo? You were correct about BB. I don't know what EP had. You missed on button. Good effort though.

[rkiray]

Hi majorkong,

Thanks for replying. Did you recently check out my "badly misplayed hand?" thread. LarryJoe posted a hand that I think he played live with you (the posts slightly confuse me, so I could be incorrect here). He says we both need to eat more Red meat. I noticed you didn't reply.

[Your Mom]

Oh, don't worry about it. I didn't think it was mean, I just wanted to know the reason you disagree. Like, I said, I think it is player dependent if you are beat on the flop. On aggressive table, I would tend to think you probably are ahead.

[rkiray]

Good, I'm glad I didn't tick you off. In general, I don't try to tick people off (there are occasional idiots that deserve to be ticked off, but you certainly arn't one of them).

[Your Mom]

(there are occasional idiots that deserve to be ticked off, but you certainly arn't one of them).

Many would beg to differ, but thanks anyway. /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

[MaxPower]

Well, AQs plays well in a multiway pot while with AQ you would prefer a shorthanded pot.

In this case, since there is only one limper to you and you are in fairly late position, you should probably raise with both AQ and AQs. You want to play the hand heads-up with the limper if possible.

As I understand it, when you expect a multiway pot you should not raise as often with AQo. Since you likely won't win the hand without improving, you want to keep the pot small so you opponents don't have the pot odds to draw out on you after the flop (assuming you improve on the flop).