10/20 QQ

[jason_t]

SB is 27.9/14.31/2.52 over 6436 and is the same villain from the KK hand. UTG+1 is 16.8/6.56/1.49 over 457 and this was his first orbit at the table.

Is it best to wait for the turn here? What effect does having the Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif have on this decision?

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (9 max, 8 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter (http://www.pokerhand.org)

Preflop: I am UTG with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">I raise</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">I bet</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, BB folds

[lil feller]

I cap and see what happens on the turn. With that board and so many cold callers preflop, a set is certainly a possibility for either player, and getting 3bet on the turn would suck. There are also alot of turn cards that will discourage you from wanting to raise the turn, like any A, K, heart, 6, 3, or 5. I'd rather get the pissing match over on the small bet street here, you're hand does'nt look all that great.

Maybe i'm seeing monsters under the bed though...

lf

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
SB is 27.9/14.31/2.52 over 6436 and is the same villain from the KK hand. UTG+1 is 16.8/6.56/1.49 over 457 and this was his first orbit at the table.

Is it best to wait for the turn here? What effect does having the Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif have on this decision?

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (9 max, 8 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter (http://www.pokerhand.org)

Preflop: I am UTG with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">I raise</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">I bet</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, BB folds

[/ QUOTE ]

nah, gas it now and hopefully fold out UTG+1. wtf is that guy cold-calling first in with anyway? weird.

[Dazarath]

Having the Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif means that you have a higher likely hood of having 2 clean outs if you're behind. Also, it lessens the chance of a redraw if you spike a Q. Lastly, if a 3rd /images/graemlins/heart.gif falls, there's a small chance your Q-high flush draw is live.

I think waiting for the turn to raise a good card is good (I like a cap as well). If a 3 or 5 falls, it allows you to save money (maybe a /images/graemlins/heart.gif as well). And if a blank falls, you can pump the pot when you have more equity.

[DMBFan23]

Hey bob,

I think UTG+1 will be calling with whatever he thought was good enough to raise with, though I do normally just cap the flop OOP.

[Nick Royale]

I think the most likely hands for UTG+1 is TT-77. In a 6-handed pot I don't think a tight and rather passive player like this will raise with a flushdraw very often, but that's still a possibility. There's also a risk we're up against a set.

I think SBs range is rather big. Flushdraw with overs, overpair, sets, all are likely. We're definately ahead more often than not against these players. By calling the flop we're giving UTG+1 odds to call with his most likely hands, 77-TT, to spike a set. I think that would be a mistake, since we're ahead of SB more often than not (at least 75/25 imo).

I can see a point in calling the flop and raising the turn to charge draws, but I don't think SB and UTG+1 is on flush-/straightdraws often enough to justify that line.

Besides the plan to charge draws might backfire. If UTG+1 is on a flushdraw+overs he might cap for a freecard, a freecard at least I would offer him if he caps. If SB is on a flushdraw he might check the turn, making us unable to raise.

In either case we might and up in a tough spot on the turn. If we cap the flop and get raised on the turn or if we call the flop and get 3-betted on the turn I would be calling down crying knowing I'm about to lose.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

bust a cap in their ass(es).

[Mempho]

Without reading the other replies, I say call 2 cold and raise the SB's turn bet on a non-heart turn. The SB's 3-bet reeks of a big draw, but it could also be an indication of a small 2 pair, made str8, or a set....he could also be bumping A6 here. That said, I put him on a draw as the most likely thing and try to push UTG+1 out on the turn. UTG+1 is only 16.8 which makes it very possible that he floated a medium pair or, much less likely, suited heart broadway.

[Mempho]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
SB is 27.9/14.31/2.52 over 6436 and is the same villain from the KK hand. UTG+1 is 16.8/6.56/1.49 over 457 and this was his first orbit at the table.

Is it best to wait for the turn here? What effect does having the Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif have on this decision?

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (9 max, 8 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter (http://www.pokerhand.org)

Preflop: I am UTG with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">I raise</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">I bet</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, BB folds

[/ QUOTE ]

nah, gas it now and hopefully fold out UTG+1. wtf is that guy cold-calling first in with anyway? weird.

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably floating 77-99 or suited broadway.

[Mempho]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey bob,

I think UTG+1 will be calling with whatever he thought was good enough to raise with, though I do normally just cap the flop OOP.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think a cap is going to push UTG+1 out here so I would cede the value of a flop cap in order to get him to lay down for 2BB on the turn. Losing the EV on the flop has got to be more than balanced out by the equity edge we gain on pushing him out on the turn. Now, if he wants to call 2 cold on the turn, that's his prerogative, but it's likely an error.

[KDawgCometh]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hey bob,

I think UTG+1 will be calling with whatever he thought was good enough to raise with, though I do normally just cap the flop OOP.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think a cap is going to push UTG+1 out here so I would cede the value of a flop cap in order to get him to lay down for 2BB on the turn. Losing the EV on the flop has got to be more than balanced out by the equity edge we gain on pushing him out on the turn. Now, if he wants to call 2 cold on the turn, that's his prerogative, but it's likely an error.

[/ QUOTE ]


I disagree, the pot is now ginormous, so I don't know how much a turn raise will protect our hand, and I'm not sure it will be of that much more value. With this hand and this size of the pot, I want to put as many bets as possible right now since I am very certain that I am ahead here and gain as much value right now as possilbe

[Mempho]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hey bob,

I think UTG+1 will be calling with whatever he thought was good enough to raise with, though I do normally just cap the flop OOP.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think a cap is going to push UTG+1 out here so I would cede the value of a flop cap in order to get him to lay down for 2BB on the turn. Losing the EV on the flop has got to be more than balanced out by the equity edge we gain on pushing him out on the turn. Now, if he wants to call 2 cold on the turn, that's his prerogative, but it's likely an error.

[/ QUOTE ]


I disagree, the pot is now ginormous, so I don't know how much a turn raise will protect our hand, and I'm not sure it will be of that much more value. With this hand and this size of the pot, I want to put as many bets as possible right now since I am very certain that I am ahead here and gain as much value right now as possilbe

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me ask you this, then. If you don't think a turn raise will protect our hand, would you rather him pay 4 small bets and 1 big bet to see the river or pay 3 small bets and 2 big bets on the river.

Of course, this works on an assumption that usually holds but is not always true: that the SB will check the turn because you capped the flop and that he will bet the turn if you call the flop. Either of these assumptions could be in error, especially given the dangerous nature of the board.

I do understand the reasoning of getting in the bets now. Basically, you seem to be saying that the turn card could cause "all hell to break loose" and therefore it might become unraiseable?

[Entity]

Cap it up.

[Entity]

[12:08] me: I don't know that it's that close
[12:08] me: sb's check3bet is usually a biggish draw
[12:08] me: more often than 88 i think
[12:09] me: add that to the fact that you won't like raising ~20% of the time
[12:10] me: and if he has 88 there are a fair # of cards that he may not lead
[12:10] me: and you're usually "waiting" to fold a 2-outer that UTG+1 can hold
[12:10] me: given that you hold the Qh a lot of his weak coldcalling-an-EP-raiser-hands are out
[12:11] me: I guess I could post all this
[12:11] me: but you know what it would amount to?
[12:11] me: me saying "cap it up"

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hey bob,

I think UTG+1 will be calling with whatever he thought was good enough to raise with, though I do normally just cap the flop OOP.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think a cap is going to push UTG+1 out here so I would cede the value of a flop cap in order to get him to lay down for 2BB on the turn. Losing the EV on the flop has got to be more than balanced out by the equity edge we gain on pushing him out on the turn. Now, if he wants to call 2 cold on the turn, that's his prerogative, but it's likely an error.

[/ QUOTE ]


I disagree, the pot is now ginormous, so I don't know how much a turn raise will protect our hand, and I'm not sure it will be of that much more value. With this hand and this size of the pot, I want to put as many bets as possible right now since I am very certain that I am ahead here and gain as much value right now as possilbe

[/ QUOTE ]
I disagree with both of your reasonings.

KDawg, why don't you think hands will fold getting 13.5:2 on the turn if we succeed in raising the turn? Many hands should and would fold.

Mempho, by taking your line you're making it correct for utg+1 to call the flop with an overpair, while capping would give that hand incorrect odds. An overpair is his most likely holding imo, so I think capping the flop is the best play.

It seems to me you're just looking at a big pot and don't take into consideration what cards your opponent might have.