Flush. call/cap flop?

[TheHammer24]

I thought it was pretty standard, but villian (unknown) thought I was an idiot and told me after the hand....Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, Hero calls, MP folds, Button calls.

Flop: (7 SB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, Button folds, SB calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) A/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls.

River: (12.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls.

Final Pot: 14.50 BB

I don't think flop raiser folds to the cap often enough to make it EV-

El standardo.

Capping will never be a mistake. You've got ~50% equity HU anyway.

[Redd]

I don't get why you capped the flop. If you don't fold out the raisor, the bet is probably very slightly +EV. If he does fold, it's significantly -EV. So he doesn't need to fold very often to make the endeavour cost you money. If he does call, you rarely get a free card anyways. Plus you give up the chance to raise the turn, blah blah blah.

[crunchy1]

I think there's a better chance that the button will call 2SBs back to him on the flop before he calls 2BBs cold on the turn. I think we can count on SB to lead every turn card after his PF/Flop action. Hero's position sucks for extraction from the Button. He's got equity on the flop. Capping disguises Hero's hand if the flush hits.

I won't say it's standard - but I like it.

[Redd]

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I think there's a better chance that the button will call 2SBs back to him on the flop before he calls 2BBs cold on the turn.

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But the amount we make on his cold-call is negligible.

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I think we can count on SB to lead every turn card after his PF/Flop action.

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Even after we call-cap?

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Capping disguises Hero's hand if the flush hits.

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It will diguise our hand the minority of the time that the flush hits on the turn, but it conversely reveals our hand when we go into check-call mode the majority of the time?

[sean c]

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I don't think flop raiser folds to the cap often enough to make it EV-

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I don't either but even the times he does it's not like your spewing by capping with 45% equity.

[crunchy1]

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I think there's a better chance that the button will call 2SBs back to him on the flop before he calls 2BBs cold on the turn.

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But the amount we make on his cold-call is negligible.


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No it's not. First off - it's an extra BB - that in itself is not negligible. Second - he's going to be a lot more inclined to continue the hand to the river, and possibly showdown, after investing 6SBs on the first two streets.

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I think we can count on SB to lead every turn card after his PF/Flop action.

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Even after we call-cap?

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Fine. Possibly not any turn card. I don't think you should discount the amount of donk-betting that occurs on the turn in the 2/4 game. It's gotten really ridiculous lately - and possibly that's influencing my analysis.

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Capping disguises Hero's hand if the flush hits.

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It will diguise our hand the minority of the time that the flush hits on the turn, but it conversely reveals our hand when we go into check-call mode the majority of the time?

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When are we ever going to be in check/call mode? If SB checks the turn, we check and the BB bets. This situation is negligible. SB probably won't give a free card on a non-club turn - that's fine. Smooth-calling the turn after call-capping the flop probably doesn't narrow Hero's range in SB's view to only a flush draw.

Regardless of all of these points. It's not like we're trying to disguise, protect or gain extra value needed to make up any bet because of some equity disadvantage. IMO, this is a fine example of a cap for value.

[badbill7]

i thought this is extremely standard because we cap this here. we are either winning with flush here or not so its capped while our value is high. If turn card comes here our value goes to pot but we are still c call turn one way or the other. so who cares if our hand is given away its not like we are winning this hand any other way. sorry didnt see gutshot. even more reason to call down turn no matter what. what are our other options here?

[TheHammer24]

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I don't get why you capped the flop. If you don't fold out the raisor, the bet is probably very slightly +EV. If he does fold, it's significantly -EV. So he doesn't need to fold very often to make the endeavour cost you money. If he does call, you rarely get a free card anyways. Plus you give up the chance to raise the turn, blah blah blah.

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With a pair, gutshot, and flush draw I have 17 outs to improve not always to a best hand thoguh. I have to imagine that any time I keep both players in it's more than slight EV, and when it goes HU, equity wise it may be EV-, but having the ability to take a free card on the turn...remember I have absolute position now....makes the play much more valuable.

A couple other notes on your other post:

I don't think 2BB is really negligible for LP player to call on the turn. 2BB is 2BB, and most players don't like their TPGK anymore.

What do you mean it reveals our hand when we go into check call mode? Do you mean it reveals it in this current hand? If so, I don't see why that is a huge problem. Villian is going to showdown.

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but having the ability to take a free card on the turn...remember I have absolute position now....makes the play much more valuable.

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[Redd]

Which pair are you talking about on the flop? It looks to me like you didn't pair until the river..

I agree that the free card potential is there, but you mention that you rarely expect button to fold, making a free card difficult when we check the turn behind SB.

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I don't think 2BB is really negligible for LP player to call on the turn. 2BB is 2BB, and most players don't like their TPGK anymore.

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I'm saying that we're only getting like 40% of the bets going in on the flop, and only when button calls, when we value-cap here.

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What do you mean it reveals our hand when we go into check call mode? Do you mean it reveals it in this current hand? If so, I don't see why that is a huge problem. Villian is going to showdown.

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I was saying that after we call-cap the flop and check the turn, we're going to expose our hand as a strong draw.

My thinking was that between the times that we don't improve and the times that button folds, we're pushing a fairly thin equity edge to begin with, at the cost of another value-raise should we hit our outs later on in the hand. Perhaps I'm underestimating Hero's equity and the resulting value in a flop raise, however.

[crunchy1]

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I was saying that after we call-cap the flop and check the turn, we're going to expose our hand as a strong draw.

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I don't think that the typical 2/4 player is going to realize this.

[TheHammer24]

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Which pair are you talking about on the flop? It looks to me like you didn't pair until the river..

I agree that the free card potential is there, but you mention that you rarely expect button to fold, making a free card difficult when we check the turn behind SB.

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I don't think 2BB is really negligible for LP player to call on the turn. 2BB is 2BB, and most players don't like their TPGK anymore.

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I'm saying that we're only getting like 40% of the bets going in on the flop, and only when button calls, when we value-cap here.

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What do you mean it reveals our hand when we go into check call mode? Do you mean it reveals it in this current hand? If so, I don't see why that is a huge problem. Villian is going to showdown.

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I was saying that after we call-cap the flop and check the turn, we're going to expose our hand as a strong draw.

My thinking was that between the times that we don't improve and the times that button folds, we're pushing a fairly thin equity edge to begin with, at the cost of another value-raise should we hit our outs later on in the hand. Perhaps I'm underestimating Hero's equity and the resulting value in a flop raise, however.

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I'm sorry...there was two hands similar to this one in my session last night, and one of them I had a pair and an OESD and the other one was above. So I only have 11 outs to the likely best hand.

But what do you think about this: If I cap and LP folds, then I have 40 - 45% equity, but have gained absolute position and have a solid shot at a free card. However, if LP does not fold then my bet is for value. Either way, I like capping the flop.

I don't necessarily think that call/capping gives away my hand. a) 2/4 players are not usually congnizant of the action b) 2/4 and other players will often cap, correctly, in this spot for deception because they assume that the other player will do it anyway c) 2/4 players often call cap with a monster in this spot

[newhizzle]

i like it, call at first so you dont knock out the other guy, cap to push your edge

[Redd]

Yeah, I'm convinced. I wasn't doing the equity calculations for our hand and our equity is higher than I originally ballparked. I was thinking we'd gain like 0.1SB when we button calls the cap and lose 0.8SB when he folds, but this isn't the case.