Have I taken this folding thing too far?

[Scuba Chuck]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (7 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Hero (t775)
SB (t785)
BB (t1970)
UTG (t775)
MP1 (t1395)
MP2 (t1835)
CO (t465)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls t15, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls t15, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t60) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets t45</font>, BB folds, MP1 calls t45, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t125</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to t770 (All-In)</font>, MP1 folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t1000

[ilya]

I don't think so, I think on this drawless flop you're usually hosed at the $30s after the 3-bet all-in.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think so, I think on this drawless flop you're usually hosed at the $30s after the 3-bet all-in.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was thinking that a call might have been better afterward. But I think I kind of like the raise.

[bigt439]

I play the hand like you did, but I call on the end. I think he has a worse J a lot. He wouldn't play a set that fast in the 800 chippers, and the same is usually true of two pair... he would however play JT that fast...

[gisb0rne]

Wait couldn't SB reraise like this with any jack and a pocket pair less than jacks in addition to his 2 pair/set? I would call in this spot. If you're not going to call here and bust the donks who reraise any jack, why did you bother playing AJ in the first place?

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
Wait couldn't SB reraise like this with any jack and a pocket pair less than jacks in addition to his 2 pair/set? I would call in this spot. If you're not going to call here and bust the donks who reraise any jack, why did you bother playing AJ in the first place?

[/ QUOTE ]

The thing I hate about this situation is that the aggressor comes from the blinds. Had it been another, I'd be more inclined to call. Or, maybe this thinking is wrong.

[GtrHtr]

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (7 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Hero (t775)
SB (t785)
BB (t1970)
UTG (t775)
MP1 (t1395)
MP2 (t1835)
CO (t465)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls t15, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls t15, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t60) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets t45</font>, BB folds, MP1 calls t45, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t125</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to t770 (All-In)</font>, MP1 folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t1000

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice laydown Scuba. I would've donked this up. Why is it I feel I'm moving further and further from solid post flop play?

On a positive note, something I'm trying to get better at, villains hand pf, any 2, post flop, duh, set or 2 pair.

I like this post because personally, i think TPTK gets you in trouble a lot. I think a lot of the problem in this forum is everyone seems to think you MUST extract the max in EVERY situation. That is simply not true. I dont mind folding the best hand if I think I can find a better place later on and i have a healthy stack. Maybe a better question to help you deal with this is how did the rest of this sng turn out. I have been in situations like this where i let it go, and every once in a while i even let it go when i leave myself shortstacked, but i come back and win the sng. sometimes, discretion is the better part of valor.

How did the rest of this sng play out?

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
Nice laydown Scuba.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, it helps that I have this huge aversion to AJ. LOL

[psyduck]

Um, this is a bad fold. Villain has a worse J here a very large % of the time.

Think about this, if he had a monster on this RAGGGGY board, why would he lead? I would be much more happy with folding if he had checkraised you.

I think this is a HORRIBLE fold. People are giving away their money during the early levels, and you should be making these calls with TPTK all day on such a nice flop.

[michw]

[ QUOTE ]
The thing I hate about this situation is that the aggressor comes from the blinds. Had it been another, I'd be more inclined to call

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this thinking. If the villian is in middle position I call most of the time.

[lacky]

If you wont play that hand for all your chips when you flop top pair on a completely safe flop, dont waste the 15 chips calling anymore.

[gildwulf]

I think this is a very bad fold, especially at the 30s where JT, QJ and KJ push on this flop. Against a hand range of JJ, 66, 22, KJs, QJs, JTs, KJo, QJo, and JTo you are a 2-1 favorite. If you add in J2s, J2o, J6s, J6o it's a coinflip in your favor; if you add in 62s and 62o he is a 55/45 favorite. I think against his range with no reads you should definitely call.

[gildwulf]

Also, it is rare sets are played that fast, especially the overbet all-in.

[KKbluff]

I'd call as well.
Most of the time your going to be ahead so I could justify calling.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
If you wont play that hand for all your chips when you flop top pair on a completely safe flop, dont waste the 15 chips calling anymore.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ouch.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
If you wont play that hand for all your chips when you flop top pair on a completely safe flop, dont waste the 15 chips calling anymore.

[/ QUOTE ]

Second thought. I thought Ilya's point had very good merit.

[gildwulf]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you wont play that hand for all your chips when you flop top pair on a completely safe flop, dont waste the 15 chips calling anymore.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ouch.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/heart.gif

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think so, I think on this drawless flop you're usually hosed at the $30s after the 3-bet all-in.

[/ QUOTE ]

By what? I doubt you will, but don't list off hands that beat you, list off why he played them like that and how often you think a player would play them like that.

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think so, I think on this drawless flop you're usually hosed at the $30s after the 3-bet all-in.

[/ QUOTE ]

By what? I doubt you will, but don't list off hands that beat you, list off why he played them like that and how often you think a player would play them like that.

[/ QUOTE ]

when the small blind leads out into this tiny multiway pot on a board that could easily get checked around, it makes me suspect that he's trying to build a pot. would it seem worth it to him to bet a marginal hand into this 4-way 60-chip pot, trying to take it down? i don't think so, not most of the time. so when he bets i think he has at least a Jack the large majority of the time.
the MP guy calls and then the LP guy makes a small raise. the SB has to figure it's pretty likely that at least one of his opponents has a Jack. the reason i think you're beat most of the time when he 3-bets is that i think the average player at this level doesn't expect his opponent to be able to fold any sort of decent Jack here. if our villain in fact thinks this way, he's quite likely to 3-bet here with a hand that can beat TPTK because he figures to get called, and doesn't want to lose his action to any one of 12 turn scare cards. buuut i dunno if he goes ahead and pushes with a hand like QJ or JT as eagerly, cos if one of his opponents has a Jack, it doesn't figure to be smaller than J9 or so. then again he might have expected AJ &amp; KJ to raise in LP cos he would often have raised there himself.

hmmm i'm talking myself into a call as I go. still, i do think that you'll often see a better hand here for the reasons I gave.

[bennies]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think so, I think on this drawless flop you're usually hosed at the $30s after the 3-bet all-in.

[/ QUOTE ]

By what? I doubt you will, but don't list off hands that beat you, list off why he played them like that and how often you think a player would play them like that.

[/ QUOTE ]

when the small blind leads out into this tiny multiway pot on a board that could easily get checked around, it makes me suspect that he's trying to build a pot. would it seem worth it to him to bet a marginal hand into this 4-way 60-chip pot, trying to take it down? i don't think so, not most of the time. so when he bets i think he has at least a Jack the large majority of the time.
the MP guy calls and then the LP guy makes a small raise. the SB has to figure it's pretty likely that at least one of his opponents has a Jack. the reason i think you're beat most of the time when he 3-bets is that i think the average player at this level doesn't expect his opponent to be able to fold any sort of decent Jack here. if our villain in fact thinks this way, he's quite likely to 3-bet here with a hand that can beat TPTK because he figures to get called, and doesn't want to lose his action to any one of 12 turn scare cards. buuut i dunno if he goes ahead and pushes with a hand like QJ or JT as eagerly, cos if one of his opponents has a Jack, it doesn't figure to be smaller than J9 or so. then again he might have expected AJ &amp; KJ to raise in LP cos he would often have raised there himself.

hmmm i'm talking myself into a call as I go. still, i do think that you'll often see a better hand here for the reasons I gave.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice post. I think this decision is as close as you imply, I figure sb often has two pair here.

[jeffraider]

[ QUOTE ]
I play the hand like you did, but I call on the end. I think he has a worse J a lot. He wouldn't play a set that fast in the 800 chippers, and the same is usually true of two pair... he would however play JT that fast...

[/ QUOTE ]

Seconded!

[player1]

[ QUOTE ]
Um, this is a bad fold. Villain has a worse J here a very large % of the time.

Think about this, if he had a monster on this RAGGGGY board, why would he lead? I would be much more happy with folding if he had checkraised you.

I think this is a HORRIBLE fold. People are giving away their money during the early levels, and you should be making these calls with TPTK all day on such a nice flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

hypothically, IF someone had position (let's say button was in also) and pushed, is it then a clear fold or at least a tough decision? this is assuming the initial bettor (SB) folded.

thanks,
jc

This is one of those calls I see other people make all the time and lose their whole stack.

In fact, it happens so often, there is a rule to avoid it. Rule: Don't call all-in in unraised pots with only top pair. If someone likes the board that bad, they've got you beat.

If that's me in the blinds, I probably have 62 or J2. I might not necessarily play J6 that fast, but crazy things happen when you have 2 pair with the bottom card, esp a deuce...I play those fast.

If you want to play AJ for top pair value in a monster pot, raise preflop and control the betting.

[soko]

Nobody is raising AJ from the button preflop here? Why are we letting MP1 and the blinds in for a cheap flop?

[schwza]

i'd say raise/limp is pretty close pre-flop. on the flop, i'd call with AJ but i'd toss QJ. probably fold KJ too.

[adanthar]

If these were the 100's, I would fold and expect the SB to have exactly 62, maybe J2.

In the 30's, he has 88 and 72o enough to call, but it's not really THAT clearcut and I wouldn't say it's a 'bad' fold.

[tewall]

If you limp in with AJo, you're look to hit a bigger hand than TPTK, aren't you? AJo doesn't seem like a good hand to play like this to me. It's not a good multiway hand.

If you do hit TPTK, and call the flop, how far to you keep calling? Are you calling the flop hoping it get's checked down? Or are you trapping with it, planning on calling all the way?

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
If you limp in with AJo, you're look to hit a bigger hand than TPTK, aren't you? AJo doesn't seem like a good hand to play like this to me. It's not a good multiway hand.

If you do hit TPTK, and call the flop, how far to you keep calling? Are you calling the flop hoping it get's checked down? Or are you trapping with it, planning on calling all the way?

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, i'd obviously like to have something better than 1 pair before i stick a bunch of chips in, but AJ makes something better than 1 pair less often than 95o does, so i'm not exactly playing it for trips/2 pair value.

my plan is to win a medium pot with a one pair hand, but sometimes i wind up with everything in the middle.

calling down all the way is also an ok option, but you hate to see that you let 2nd pair hit his kicker or something.

[aslowjoe]

[ QUOTE ]
Nobody is raising AJ from the button preflop here? Why are we letting MP1 and the blinds in for a cheap flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

lurking around here to pick up a few tips. Mainly play limit. Please correct me but I am raising 99% of the time pre flop for this exact reason. I do not want to have a decision against j6 or whatever trash the blinds might have. You hand has +EV from late postion.Dont let the blinds play for free.

[Degen]

i hate that you never put the buy-in on these hands...it is so crucial...i did quick math and if i'm right this is an 800 chip tourney...in that case i call...1000 chips i probably fold

i think you played the hand great

[11t]

I call here, donks could have QJ/KJ and regular players don't complete from the SB with j6 or j2. The only hands you are afraid of are 66 and 22. Sets happen though.

Eh, barring a read I call here.

[11t]

Deeper stacks (55+ party or stars) I think raising AJ from the button is +EV but in 800 chippers I think limping here is better.

[Degen]

[ QUOTE ]
If you wont play that hand for all your chips when you flop top pair on a completely safe flop, dont waste the 15 chips calling anymore.

[/ QUOTE ]

i disagree with this...i'd fold if the A flopped and not the J and the hand played out the same

when i call that 15 there (or raise /images/graemlins/grin.gif) what i'm looking for is some donkey to call off too many chips with QJ or an underpair or some other donkey hand...i'm not looking to get resistance

[SonnyJay]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Nobody is raising AJ from the button preflop here? Why are we letting MP1 and the blinds in for a cheap flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

lurking around here to pick up a few tips. Mainly play limit. Please correct me but I am raising 99% of the time pre flop for this exact reason. I do not want to have a decision against j6 or whatever trash the blinds might have. You hand has +EV from late postion.Dont let the blinds play for free.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm usually not raising this preflop because I'm not looking to build a pot with AJo. I'd much rather try to get paid off if I hit than raise preflop and face a likely call.

It's true that it's +EV in late position, but it's a lot harder to make this raise here than in a limit ring game where I can better forecast scenarios of how the rest of the hand goes. I don't think a raise is horrible, but I'm usually not looking to build a pot preflop this early in a tourney.

OP: I probably call, but as many have said, it's pretty close. I do think I see a worse hand enough to call.

-SonnyJay

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think so, I think on this drawless flop you're usually hosed at the $30s after the 3-bet all-in.

[/ QUOTE ]

By what? I doubt you will, but don't list off hands that beat you, list off why he played them like that and how often you think a player would play them like that.

[/ QUOTE ]

when the small blind leads out into this tiny multiway pot on a board that could easily get checked around, it makes me suspect that he's trying to build a pot. would it seem worth it to him to bet a marginal hand into this 4-way 60-chip pot, trying to take it down? i don't think so, not most of the time. so when he bets i think he has at least a Jack the large majority of the time.
the MP guy calls and then the LP guy makes a small raise. the SB has to figure it's pretty likely that at least one of his opponents has a Jack. the reason i think you're beat most of the time when he 3-bets is that i think the average player at this level doesn't expect his opponent to be able to fold any sort of decent Jack here. if our villain in fact thinks this way, he's quite likely to 3-bet here with a hand that can beat TPTK because he figures to get called, and doesn't want to lose his action to any one of 12 turn scare cards. buuut i dunno if he goes ahead and pushes with a hand like QJ or JT as eagerly, cos if one of his opponents has a Jack, it doesn't figure to be smaller than J9 or so. then again he might have expected AJ &amp; KJ to raise in LP cos he would often have raised there himself.

hmmm i'm talking myself into a call as I go. still, i do think that you'll often see a better hand here for the reasons I gave.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for a thoughtful well-written post. The difference between the two of us is not in how well we're analyzing the situation but the "read" we're assigning to the players in the hand. Since there isn't a specific read, the read that I have on the average $33er differs vastly from the read you have. I don't think many people at this level understand the concept of buliding a pot or think about how they're opponents are likely to react with given holdings. They think good hand = chips, and fail to analyze the situational factors. I like your thought process but think this hand is about 2 buy-ins too lows to be using it. Hell, I have a difficult time folding this in the $109's without a read. Remember, we make money of donks, and lots of 'em.

[The once and future king]

[ QUOTE ]
I like this post because personally, i think TPTK gets you in trouble a lot. I think a lot of the problem in this forum is everyone seems to think you MUST extract the max in EVERY situation. That is simply not true. I dont mind folding the best hand if I think I can find a better place later on and i have a healthy stack. Maybe a better question to help you deal with this is how did the rest of this sng turn out. I have been in situations like this where i let it go, and every once in a while i even let it go when i leave myself shortstacked, but i come back and win the sng. sometimes, discretion is the better part of valor.

How did the rest of this sng play out?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ewwww, this is utterly horrible.

[tewall]

I think my preference would be to fold it, unless on the button with many limpers, in which case I'd limp. If I did come in earlier, I'd want to raise with it, so I could commit to it if I hit a TPTK flop.

The way you're suggesting seems viable, but awfully hard one the nerves. You're going to have to guess if TPTK is good in an unraised pot, which is pretty tough. Plus you can't have your cake and eat it to. If you call, you have to take a chance of someone getting a "free" chance to improve, but if you raise, you're pretty much commiting yourself to the hand.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for a thoughtful well-written post. The difference between the two of us is not in how well we're analyzing the situation but the "read" we're assigning to the players in the hand. Since there isn't a specific read, the read that I have on the average $33er differs vastly from the read you have. I don't think many people at this level understand the concept of buliding a pot or think about how they're opponents are likely to react with given holdings. They think good hand = chips, and fail to analyze the situational factors. I like your thought process but think this hand is about 2 buy-ins too lows to be using it. Hell, I have a difficult time folding this in the $109's without a read. Remember, we make money of donks, and lots of 'em.

[/ QUOTE ]

also a nice post. i think there are just too many crappy Jx hands that villain can have and overplay here. this is about the quality of thinking that i generally assume my opponents are doing: i have top pair - uhhhhhh, bet. oh he raised. he doesn't have anything. i'm all-in.

that's at least the thought process of my fishy roommates when they play.

I know consistency isn't the goal of poker, but I'm kinda new and trying to wrap my head around some ideas. In this thread AT hand (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&amp;Board=singletable&amp;Number=414974 1&amp;Searchpage=1&amp;Main=4149624&amp;Words=+mgs29035&amp;topic= &amp;Search=true#Post4149741) people advocated a push saying that villian is very likely to play K10 this way.

Is the differnce here, that the villian was in the blinds? I think a fold is correct, but I thought it was correct in the A10 hand also. But, I'm starting to think I'm too weak/tight.

[pineapple888]

[ QUOTE ]
I know consistency isn't the goal of poker, but I'm kinda new and trying to wrap my head around some ideas. In this thread AT hand (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&amp;Board=singletable&amp;Number=414974 1&amp;Searchpage=1&amp;Main=4149624&amp;Words=+mgs29035&amp;topic= &amp;Search=true#Post4149741) people advocated a push saying that villian is very likely to play K10 this way.

Is the differnce here, that the villian was in the blinds? I think a fold is correct, but I thought it was correct in the A10 hand also. But, I'm starting to think I'm too weak/tight.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nah, it's the same thing. Most people at the 33s don't understand the concept of being outkicked.

I insta-call the push, BTW.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
I know consistency isn't the goal of poker, but I'm kinda new and trying to wrap my head around some ideas. In this thread AT hand (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&amp;Board=singletable&amp;Number=414974 1&amp;Searchpage=1&amp;Main=4149624&amp;Words=+mgs29035&amp;topic= &amp;Search=true#Post4149741) people advocated a push saying that villian is very likely to play K10 this way.

Is the differnce here, that the villian was in the blinds? I think a fold is correct, but I thought it was correct in the A10 hand also. But, I'm starting to think I'm too weak/tight.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, there is quite a bit of difference, to me at least, between these two posts. In the AT hand, villain did not play from the blinds.

[soko]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Nobody is raising AJ from the button preflop here? Why are we letting MP1 and the blinds in for a cheap flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

lurking around here to pick up a few tips. Mainly play limit. Please correct me but I am raising 99% of the time pre flop for this exact reason. I do not want to have a decision against j6 or whatever trash the blinds might have. You hand has +EV from late postion.Dont let the blinds play for free.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm usually not raising this preflop because I'm not looking to build a pot with AJo. I'd much rather try to get paid off if I hit than raise preflop and face a likely call.

It's true that it's +EV in late position, but it's a lot harder to make this raise here than in a limit ring game where I can better forecast scenarios of how the rest of the hand goes. I don't think a raise is horrible, but I'm usually not looking to build a pot preflop this early in a tourney.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're sort of missing the point. You are letting MP1 and the blinds get a cheap flop. Why do you want to let people think they can limp in to a pot that you are expecting to be a favorite to win?

And why do you want to play AJ multiway? Why take a hand such as AJ that is already difficult enough to play then compound that difficulty by not trying to make it heads up after the flop?

[gildwulf]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think so, I think on this drawless flop you're usually hosed at the $30s after the 3-bet all-in.

[/ QUOTE ]

By what? I doubt you will, but don't list off hands that beat you, list off why he played them like that and how often you think a player would play them like that.

[/ QUOTE ]

when the small blind leads out into this tiny multiway pot on a board that could easily get checked around, it makes me suspect that he's trying to build a pot. would it seem worth it to him to bet a marginal hand into this 4-way 60-chip pot, trying to take it down? i don't think so, not most of the time. so when he bets i think he has at least a Jack the large majority of the time.
the MP guy calls and then the LP guy makes a small raise. the SB has to figure it's pretty likely that at least one of his opponents has a Jack. the reason i think you're beat most of the time when he 3-bets is that i think the average player at this level doesn't expect his opponent to be able to fold any sort of decent Jack here. if our villain in fact thinks this way, he's quite likely to 3-bet here with a hand that can beat TPTK because he figures to get called, and doesn't want to lose his action to any one of 12 turn scare cards. buuut i dunno if he goes ahead and pushes with a hand like QJ or JT as eagerly, cos if one of his opponents has a Jack, it doesn't figure to be smaller than J9 or so. then again he might have expected AJ &amp; KJ to raise in LP cos he would often have raised there himself.

hmmm i'm talking myself into a call as I go. still, i do think that you'll often see a better hand here for the reasons I gave.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ilya, this is a great post but...honestly, you are giving the thought process of an unknown player at the 30s too much credit.

[The Don]

You've taken this "not raising preflop" thing too far.

that may be horrible, i wont disagree. but help me out here, a good fold keeps you alive. TPTK is often overplayed, IMO, so i think encouraging a solid fold is better than encouraging a weak push. I will never say that my play is optimum, but i will say it is profitable...help me out here and king...please elaborate.

re-reading the original post, here is why i thought it was a fine fold...it wasnt worth protecting for some reason, so why is it worth calling a push into such a small pot? I have made this call before and that is why i am open to the fold. I have been up against small sets...so they limp preflop and when you show any strength, like chuck did here with the re-raise, they push and lick their chops as you sit there thinking about calling. I've seen it a lot and i think TPTK is a dangerous hand...often second best. I dont mind letting certain hands go in certain situations and this happens to be one of them...

[tewall]

So it seems as a general rule, y'all are willing to go to the felt with TPTK on Party at any level.

[ QUOTE ]
So it seems as a general rule, y'all are willing to go to the felt with TPTK on Party at any level.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tewall,

See my posts at teh bottom and please reply. I am not so willing and was told my logic is utterly horrible /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I am willing to accept that, but i am also willing to discuss reasons as to why my logic is so flawed (in some people's opinion) Feedback is appreciated.

[tewall]

The problem with your logic (from your post at the bottom) is there isn't enough time to wait for a better situation if you're involved with what you think is a clear edge, because of the tournament structure. You can get away from from marginal situations if you don't have many chips involved.

Regarding TPTK, I would have no reservations whatsoever to go to the felt at level 2 on Party. At level 1, I wouldn't mind either if there were only a couple of opponents (i.e. 2 or 1) and the pot has been raised (and I like to raise enough so it's unlikely to get more than 2). I wouldn't have been involved in the quandry of this post in the first place because I would have either folded AJo or raised with it. If the pots been raised, it seems much easier to me to commit to the hand, as you probably only have 1 or two guys to beat, and hands like J6, J4, and 64 have been weeded out, meaning you only have to worry about higher pocket pairs and sets, and if your opponent has one of those, good for him.

Limping in an unraised pot and flopping top pair and getting that much action would make me nervous when there are 3 opponents involved. However, on that particular flop, I would find it hard to get away from the hand.

[The once and future king]

From your post it looks like you dont understand EV and other concepts properly. Especialy as you ask- "how did the sng turn out"

Making the most correct EV+ play is everything, the result (in the singular) of that play is irrelevant. If I make the right play and lose a particular hand/SNG, it dosnt matter because over time that play will show a profit.

All profit in the long term is the result of making the right plays and the aggregate effect of the result of those plays.

You may fold the best hand and look for another spot but this is costing you equity/ROI.

why do u not raise with Aj on the button in an unraised pot? do u fold AJ preflop to a 3-4 BB raise?

Well, i understand it just fine...i understand that if you make a consistent play with +EV, that over the long haul, you will be profitable by making that play. however, given certain reads and situations, you might want to deviate from that...

However, lets say you are a 51% favorite on a certain hand, and that hand occurs 3 times in a sng...and each time you push...while you are +EV on the hand, you are probably not going to cash many sngs...because you are essentially 13% to win all 3 confrontations.

I understand this stuff quite well, but the difference between your games and many other people's games is you guys are all 4-tabling at a minimum and looking to maximize $$/hr. I look to maximize ROI as i am still building my bankroll and looking to get the most of every $$ invested. I assure you i am very profitable...not bragging or anything, but i do very, very well on the $55s. I do recognize there is a definite strategy to playing sngs, but if you multitable, you cannot maximize ROI, just $$/hr. and i do not think one is wrong for choosing to maximize ROi...its a matter of choice...the higher your ROI, the less your variance will be, and that is something I prefer. but for you to ASSUME anything about my understanding is a bad read on your part and now i see why you choose to multitable. you play smaller advantages harder than I would...that is preference, not lack of understanding because i push those smaller edges when i am shortstacked...but tend to shy away early in sngs...

not to sound rude, but just because there is a different style of play does not mean it cannot be profitable or just as correct. sorry, but folding one hand will not mean i will make the money, but losing a big hand will ensure you dont.

Plus, askign how it turned out means nothing about my understanding of EV, ROI, or anything for that matter...but it could prove that even if he folds, despite your insistance that he calls, he can still cash!

[adanthar]

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However, lets say you are a 51% favorite on a certain hand, and that hand occurs 3 times in a sng...and each time you push...while you are +EV on the hand, you are probably not going to cash many sngs...because you are essentially 13% to win all 3 confrontations.

I understand this stuff quite well

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No, you really don't. Let's start with the fact that once you double up the first time, a beat the second time doesn't knock you out...and go from there.

well, thats not entirely true because you have no idea who you are up against...it was a bad example, but i just think people on here make too many assumptions.

[The once and future king]

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Plus, askign how it turned out means nothing about my understanding of EV, ROI, or anything for that matter...but it could prove that even if he folds, despite your insistance that he calls, he can still cash!

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It proves that you dont understand that a sample size of 1 is utterly irrelevant. Also where do I insist he calls?

I understand not raising preflop. If you raise and SB calls you can count on BB making a very well placed steal raise. Even a donk makes this play with his stack. When you raise with small stack on the button it is usually looks like a steal and becomes a target. Either you have to put in a big enough raise to appear pot committed or just call and see what the flop brings. Myself I would have preferred the A to flop. I can see a donk pushing Ax here but Jx with a caller and raise behind him? I dont see to many 3 bet Pair of J's even at 33's. Had SB Insta pushed I may call but the re raise from early position with this board coming out of the blinds doesn't look good unless you have a solid read on villain.

[soko]

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I understand not raising preflop. If you raise and SB calls you can count on BB making a very well placed steal raise. Even a donk makes this play with his stack. When you raise with small stack on the button it is usually looks like a steal and becomes a target. Either you have to put in a big enough raise to appear pot committed or just call and see what the flop brings.

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No, the BB has to worry about MP1 who open limped, if BB reraises you then its a pretty easy fold, not a steal. you want to be heads up with MP1 so you should raise and not let the SB and BB in for cheap.