Blind Battles: Hand #4

[TStoneMBD]

BB is a very good, tough player.

everyone folds to you in the SB, you raise A5o, he calls.

Flop is a XXX

you bet he calls

Turn is X

you bet he calls

River is X

you have no pair

what boards do you checkcall on, what boards if any do you bet and what boards do you checkfold?

[Surfbullet]

I check fold almost all of them, unless i had a read/reason to call, betting seems silly.

if he was floating he would have popped me on the turn, so he's got a hand that he wants to showdown which is almost certainly better than mine. I'd expect him to jam most draws in position so I think the likihood of him calling along with an OESD or some-such is pretty slim. I also don't think he'll bluff much when I check because he can't know that i'll c/f something as good as an A, and he can't expect me to keep firing UI with worse than an A.

Surf

[wackjob]

I see a lot of your posts where "villain" is a tough TAG.. why do you play against good, possibly superior opponents so often?

[TStoneMBD]

because when you play higher stakes games you are playing alongside of other good tags and were all beating up on a few fish. im posting blind battles against good players because i think my biggest room for growth is against tough competition. i dont care about posting hands against fish because im training myself to beat tough players.

[etizzle]

if all the gutshot draws either made pairs or a straight i like to check fold. Otherwise I usally still fold but sometimes call, and will bet if the board is paired low and we have a history of playing back at each other a lot.

[ggbman]

No offense, but these hypotheticals ar very difficult because its so hard to just dream situations where you should and shouldn't call. Generally, i would feel comfortable saying that when he calls the flop and turn, it's more likely that he has a weka made hand or a showdownable hand of some sort since he has made no effort to get you to fold. If he was on a gutter draw with T-8 and he's good, he's putting in a raise somewhere. So, i guess against very good players you have the best hand about never here. Some exceptions are when he could have K high on some 2237 board, but he won't usually bet the river there.

[wackjob]

this is a bit offtopic, but quite valid IMO:
I understand that as the stakes increase, the fish decrease, the good players increase, etc. However, at some point I would think that playing 10/20 or 20/40, 4-8 tables, would produce more profit than higher limits, due to what has to be a greater win rate and the ease of playing more tables.

Playing at a table with 1 fish, 1 Lag and 2-3 TAGs, you are going to find yourself HU vs a TAG over and over.

I guess if you play for the challenge of the game and the $$$ doesn't matter nearly so much, then playing higher limits might make more sense.

[cartman]

[ QUOTE ]
this is a bit offtopic, but quite valid IMO:
I understand that as the stakes increase, the fish decrease, the good players increase, etc. However, at some point I would think that playing 10/20 or 20/40, 4-8 tables, would produce more profit than higher limits, due to what has to be a greater win rate and the ease of playing more tables.

Playing at a table with 1 fish, 1 Lag and 2-3 TAGs, you are going to find yourself HU vs a TAG over and over.

I guess if you play for the challenge of the game and the $$$ doesn't matter nearly so much, then playing higher limits might make more sense.

[/ QUOTE ]


From an pure dollars worth of EV perspective this is an equation in two variables. How many total BB can you win per hour at the two games and how many dollars is 1 BB. If you play at twice the stakes, even if your win rate drops in half you will on average win the same total dollars. Tolerance to variance, desire to improve, intellectual challenge, etc. are all matters specific to each individual.

Cartman

[oreogod]

I think c/f is good. Id assume most good K-highs and almost any A-high is 3 betting preflop or floating u postflop. Hard to say what I would c/c and c/f or b/f. I mean, a good player has either high card strength or a weak showdownable...maybe small pair on the flop and wants u to keep attacking. These situations suck when u just get called down. Hard to say when there has been no aggression whatsoever postflop.

[cartman]

First of all I would only consider check-calling the river here if the board stayed low and even then I usually wouldn't consider it for very long. To consider check calling I always have to remind myself that he needs to both have a worse hand and be willing to bet with it. The first problem in this case is that there are very few worse hands that would have just called the flop and the turn on a low board. He knows he isn't getting the correct odds to draw to two weak overcards on the turn and if he had a draw with or without showdown value he would very likely have raised somewhere. So if we rule out (or nearly out) overcard(s) with no showdown value and draws, that leaves us with pairs (which also probably would have raised at some point) or showdownable no-pair hands, both of which beat us.

Cartman

[TStoneMBD]

yah ok this one isnt really close. its an easy fold i dont know what i was thinking when making the thread.

this is a problem i face against bad players, not good players.

so pretend the BB is a loose/fairly passive player. what do you do on this river now?

[Pog0]

[ QUOTE ]
yah ok this one isnt really close. its an easy fold i dont know what i was thinking when making the thread.

this is a problem i face against bad players, not good players.

so pretend the BB is a loose/fairly passive player. what do you do on this river now?

[/ QUOTE ]

This one should be more of a call than vs a TAG.
On the one hand, he's more likely to have a weaker hand on the river, on the other hand, he's less likely to bluff at you.

However, some players that are generally passive will often bluff the river here after calling down with J high. Some. With a read, it's an easier call, however, vs a loose/passive, I don't think inducing a bluff will often work unless you know he likes to do it. I guess the decision is between bet/fold or check/fold. If he has a very low fold turn %, that might make me more inclined to see a showdown in one way or another.

[TheMetetron]

I'm probably still folding unless the board is very friendly to my calldown (paired and low, for example).

[cartman]

[ QUOTE ]
so pretend the BB is a loose/fairly passive player. what do you do on this river now?

[/ QUOTE ]

Against a player of this type who has a tendency to autobet when checked to this is a nightmare, but I still usually fold. If the board is very low then I might call, especially if my kicker is big and he is the type that wouldn't necessarily 3-bet a medium/low Ace preflop.
I have a similar nightmare when my pocket pair ends up 4th or 5th pair on a medium sized board or 3rd pair or 4th pair on a board with a couple of broadway cards. Obviously that is a huge overgeneralization, but what do you guys think about that caliber of pair vs a calling station who tends to autobet when checked to?

Thanks,
Cartman

[Arnfinn Madsen]

[ QUOTE ]
I see a lot of your posts where "villain" is a tough TAG.. why do you play against good, possibly superior opponents so often?

[/ QUOTE ]

I see a lot of posts like that on this forum, and I don't understand them. Isn't the point of improving both to milk the fishes more and to improve the range of players you have an edge against. I think we are all very good at milking fish, so improving in that area is not very important while discussing how to turn a good player into a sucker is very valuable.

[oreogod]

I like discussing how to play against good players. If u are truly intent on moving up the limits u end up playing more and more of them. I actually like playing good players, maybe Im one of the few, but I find it more exciting then playing terrible players. Sure, money-wise its not the smartest thing, but purely for playing value its much more fun.

I know Phil Ivey mentioned something like this in a new interview. Ive always felt that way. Either way, if u are playing 100/200+ u are usually playing the same group, sure there are fishes, but usually if u want to play u have to play good players as well. My understanding anyway. Who knows.

[kiddo]

Preflop I raise a good, tough player. He calls. I bet flop and turn and he calls.

What will I do on river?

A person who can answer this in a few sentences isnt a good and tough player so he should leave the table as fast as possible.

After reading this article, http://www.twoplustwo.com/magazine/issue11/seetin1105.html
I was wondering, since this is a tough player who will defend virtually almost all the time against a sb steal, wouldn't it be better to just complete preflop?

[oreogod]

[ QUOTE ]
After reading this article, http://www.twoplustwo.com/magazine/issue11/seetin1105.html
I was wondering, since this is a tough player who will defend virtually almost all the time against a sb steal, wouldn't it be better to just complete preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

that is an intresting article.

[TStoneMBD]

hi arnfinn. when you get to the high stakes level you need to learn how to play against good players because the good players know how to play against you. if you dont know how to match their skills and are a dog to them you often wont be a favorite enough in the game even if there are fishies. you people saying that you have no interest in learning how to beat good players is truly startling.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

[ QUOTE ]
hi arnfinn. when you get to the high stakes level you need to learn how to play against good players because the good players know how to play against you. if you dont know how to match their skills and are a dog to them you often wont be a favorite enough in the game even if there are fishies. you people saying that you have no interest in learning how to beat good players is truly startling.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know if you misread my post, or your reply is to others, since we agree totally.

Better to be the shark taxing the other TAGs for sitting on the table than to pay the tax (as I do sometimes /images/graemlins/blush.gif).

Isnt phil ivey supposed to have a good degree of skill in outthinking thinking opponents? At least Harrington felt that way in HoH