AA capped pre-flop

[Ulysses]

Pretty good 15-30 game.

Tight player (PH) limps in EP. Loose player limps in MP. Decent, pretty tight player (Chris) raises in CO. Button folds. I 3-bet w/ black AA in SB. Expert BB (EddieX) cold-calls. EP cold-calls. MP folds. CO 4-bets. I 5-bet. BB folds. EP calls. CO calls.

Flop Kh 8c 2s

I bet. EP calls. CO calls.

Turn (Kh 8c 2s) Qh

Check or bet?

[Ulysses]

Turn (Kh 8c 2s) Qh

Check or bet?

I check. EP checks. CO checks.

River (Kh 8c 2s Qh) Qs

I bet. EP folds. CO raises. I call.

[Georgia Peach]

This is the part of poker where i get confused about the turn play. Capped betting on the pre-flop would seem to indicate big pairs, or AK for the raisers.

It seems the safe thing is to check the turn because anyone with KK or QQ is ahead of you. If AK or AQ, you are ahead. But since there are more than two raisers (including you), you have to think either someone has the red aces or the aforementioned wired pairs.

So, since you are out of position, I think the check on the turn is wise. Some one with three Qs or Ks might just call your bet and raise your river bet if made.

The bet on the river is debatable, but I can see why you did it.

This is a tough game.

[Dynasty]

Capped betting on the pre-flop would seem to indicate big pairs, or AK for the raisers.

Why do you insist on believing that your opponents are playing logically?

[J.A.Sucker]

You should bet the turn. PH loves to stick in any pot with any pair; you should not let him try to hit his kicker for free. There is no way he has KK or QQ here, as he wouldn't limp to start things off. Chris plays very tight, but very straightforward. The Q is a somewhat scary card, since he may have KQ, but you need to see what he has.

You cannot be afraid of being raised in a big pot, especially when you have AA. I just don't understand any checking here.

Then again, I'm Just Another Sucker.

PS: What did you put Eddie on? I still have no idea, though maybe something like AJs... /forums/images/icons/confused.gif

[bruce]

Bet the turn! Yea your position sucks, but you have pretty
clearly defined your hand and you have not met any resistance yet. I would keep on firing away until I am
shown the wrongs of my way. One of my biggest weaknesses
is assuming my opposition plays logically and as a result
I over analyze the situation which causes me to miss bets.

Bruce

[all_aces]

"One of my biggest weaknesses is assuming my opposition plays logically and as a result I over analyze the situation which causes me to miss bets."

Amen.

Ulysses, I wouldn't presume to give you advice, but here's my two cents: I'd bet the turn, and see what happens. When the Q pairs, I'd check the river.

[Ulysses]

CO takes it down w/ AQo.

Pre-flop, when this player 4-bet my SB 3-bet (and calls by two very good players), I put him on a very narrow range of hands - AA/KK/QQ/AKs. He's not the kind of guy who usually pumps stuff like JTs in this situation. Normally, against this opponent, I think my assessment is pretty reasonable.

On the flop, I don't learn much. Everyone has something. I'm not worried about the guy in the middle. I do think CO may have flopped trip Kings and is waiting to pop us both on the turn. But I think it's also very possible that he has QQ or AA.

I agree w/ everyone that I should have bet the turn. But I really thought that CO would have a set now more times than not and I'd have to pay off a raise. When he checked behind, I put him on exactly AK.

On the river, I like the Queen. Unless guy in the middle had KQs, I feel great. Of course, I was wrong.

I didn't take into account the fact that CO was stuck almost two racks at this point and had decided to gamble. I had been hitting big (and bluffing optimally) all night long. He said he was positive I had KK or AA, but he just had a feeling that he was going to somehow crack my hand w/ a runner-runner, hence the flop overcall.

[Ulysses]

All reasonable feedback is always appreciated. Looking at hands from different perspectives usually helps everyone's game.

I'd bet the turn, and see what happens. When the Q pairs, I'd check the river.

I agree halfway. Should have bet the turn. OK, I bet the turn and get two callers. Now, the Queen pairs. I'd bet again 100% of the time. If I think I'm ahead after the turn, I really don't expect another Queen to change anything.

[Ulysses]

Why do you insist on believing that your opponents are playing logically?

I think it was reasonable for the poster to make that assumption in this case. I described the raiser/4-bettor as a decent, pretty tight player. I 3-bet from SB, an expert cold-called in BB, and a tight open-limper called as well. When CO 4-bets, most times he's going to have a pretty big hand here.

[Ulysses]

PS: What did you put Eddie on? I still have no idea, though maybe something like AJs...

Pre-flop, I thought he had something like AQo. He'll fold that every time to a legitimate 3-bet, but if he thinks I'm trying to isolate a steal by Chris, he'll play. Once it goes 4 and 5 bets, he knows we're for real. But that would be the case Ace and Queen, so unlikely it was that.

I doubt he had a pocket pair. I doubt he had something like 89s. I don't think he had something like AJs - w/ that pot and the jackpot, he's going to see a flop w/ a hand like that. Maybe AJo. Pretty sure it was something w/ an Ace or a King in it and he felt he was drawing very thin once I 5-bet.

I think "What range of hands does an expert call a pre-flop 3-bet with and muck to a 5-bet?" is actually a pretty interesting question...

[Tommy Angelo]

If I was playing against Chris the way he plays against me, I would checkfold the turn. But playing against Chris the way he plays against you? I have no idea.


Tommy

[Georgia Peach]

re: Dynasty "Why do you insist on believing that your opponents are playing logically?"

I know, I know. But I'm still pretty new to this game & I give more credit to other players than I should, but it's tough until you get some experience under your belt.

It's just still very hard for me to understand when a raise is real & not just for value or bluff sake. It seems safer at time to get out than stay in, as Lee Jones recommends to new players.

But you're right, too much credit given without enough proof of logic.

[bruce]

Either your opponent has a very good imagination to call a King rag rag flop with AQo or he needs to be stuck like a pig and squealing.

[jen]

I would've put Chris on the same hands that you did -- KK, QQ, AKs with an outside chance of AQs, AJs, JJ. When I read your post, I thought you were pretty much toast by the turn. But as everyone says, Chris plays really straightfowardly and passively post-flop. Given your pre-flop cap and the board, I doubt Chris would even raise a turn bet with KQ, much less semi-bluff. Because KK and QQ weren't his only possible holdings, the board was extremely vulnerable to draws, and you were playing against an easy read, I think you should've bet till you were raised. If raised, then I think you have a pretty easy fold.

[elysium]

hi ulysses
bet