QQ vs. BPAT (Best Player at Table)

[BoxTree]

Commerce 400 NL, 5/10 Blinds, 9-handed

Hero has Q/images/graemlins/heart.gifQ/images/graemlins/diamond.gif on the Button.
Villain is in the SB.

Hero (Button): $1,200
Villain (SB): $2,300, exceedingly good player. The best at the table by a reasonable margin.

Three limpers, Hero (Button) makes it 60 to go, Villain (SB) raises to 120, folds around to Hero, Hero calls.

Flop (2 players, $280): 9/images/graemlins/club.gif8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif8/images/graemlins/heart.gif

Villain bets $150, Hero calls.

Turn (2 players, $580): K/images/graemlins/spade.gif

Villain checks, Hero...?

Comments on all streets welcome.

My gut: I like my flop call since Villain is much better than I am and I plan on playing this hand passively to the river. I have no idea where I am at any point in this hand, and I highly doubt I could find a bet that would tell me where I am. Of course, those of you who have experience against very good players may know of a good line to take. My plan was to check behind on the turn and call any reasonably-sized river bet. I'm not saying that's what I did, but that was my plan. Does my plan suck?

[jrforman]

2 options I see...Bet and fold to a raise or check and call a reasonable bet on river. I lean towards check/calling though.

[soah]

Being "good" isn't really much of a read. It tells us nothing about how he actually plays or how he views you. If you've been liberal about raising from the button then this really changes the dynamics of this hand.

When I've played live the solid regulars pretty much stay out of each other's pots and carve up the fishies. With this action from one of them, I'd very probably fold the flop. But, everything I've read of LA games indicates they are nothing like the ultra-passive games around here. So without more information, there's not much we can say except "it depends."

[LearnedfromTV]

The "Best Player at the table" minreraised you preflop from the blinds. Hmmm.

So AA-QQ, AK, a few lower pairs/suited connectors? Without knowing how often this guy reraises a button raise, it is tough to say. The minraise is what throws me. He wants you in the pot and/or wants you think he wants you in the pot. Should he expect that you'll give up on a steal if you don't hit the flop hard, in which case he's trying to resteal cheaply? Otherwise, that he minraised out of position makes JJ, TT or any A but AK pretty unlikely , because he needs a hand that he can play easily postflop to put himself in that position. But if he's really the BPAT he's not only doing this with AA-KK, so there's has to be a chance of JJ-TT, lower pairs, or something like T9s.

I think checking the turn is best. I can't imagine him having an ace other than AK, so you aren't giving him a free card too often, and even if you are, there's a reasonable chance he fires again with AQ or Aj or something on the river. Also the only strongish draw is JT and 2 of those outs are your money cards.

Check behind, call the river because the weird minreraise is AA-KK pretty often? Generally it seems like he can't have more than 2-4 outs if he's behind and the board is semi-ugly for your hand and most of the hand he could hold that you beat. Checking behind gets the most when ahead and loses the least when behind.

[Woolygimp]

"Exceedingly Good PLayer" min-reraising PF?
Isn't this an oxymoron...

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
"Exceedingly Good PLayer" min-reraising PF?
Isn't this an oxymoron...

[/ QUOTE ]
sry dude, but i dont think you are qualified to comment.

[Woolygimp]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"Exceedingly Good PLayer" min-reraising PF?
Isn't this an oxymoron...

[/ QUOTE ]
sry dude, but i dont think you are qualified to comment.

[/ QUOTE ]

Care to explain? I mean i'm obviously a losing player with 8ptbb/100.
I'm not as good as i could be and i'm definately not the best on these forums. I don't give a [censored] if you don't agree with whatever I said (probaly agreeing with Garland's check/fold with AA) nor do i give a [censored] what you beleive the qualifications are to post.

There is no arguement to be made as to why the villain's min-checkraise PF was the correct play. If there is please inform me so I can min re-raise more often.

Villain didn't min-raise.

Dumle

I like to check here and call a reasonable bet on the river.

Dumle

[LearnedfromTV]

[ QUOTE ]
Villain didn't min-raise.

Dumle

[/ QUOTE ]

Technically a minreraise is to 110. 10---> 60 ---> 110. But just doubling the bet is effectively a minraise. A pot size reraise would have been to 225. He's shutting out the limpers and isolating Hero. It's just odd that he would do this with such a small raise, especially when out of position.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"Exceedingly Good PLayer" min-reraising PF?
Isn't this an oxymoron...

[/ QUOTE ]
sry dude, but i dont think you are qualified to comment.

[/ QUOTE ]

Care to explain?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd imagine it's because you're not very articulate, and you make a lot of marginal arguments very aggressively:

[ QUOTE ]

There is no arguement to be made as to why the villain's min-checkraise PF was the correct play. If there is please inform me so I can min re-raise more often.

[/ QUOTE ]
Notes: he didn't minraise, and even if he did, there are arguments to be made for it, especially live. [Cheap information, confusing the donk that's terrified of you.] Also, it's 'argument'.

I was just pointing out what I think flawless was refering to. Perhaps I was wrong and they have some history, though. I don't know.

Dumle

[TheWorstPlayer]

I bet and fold to a raise. You may get him to make a loose call thinking he's induced a bluff since the K is a good card to bluff at. And he will be unlikely to c/r bluff, I think, because you can easily have AA/KK/AK here and trying to get you to lay those down is not a good idea.

[swolfe]

magic 8-ball says: Villain holds KK

[TheWorstPlayer]

Magic 8 ball says if he has KK, I well prefer betting 2/3 pot on turn and not putting in another dime over checking turn and calling pot or more on river.

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
magic 8-ball says: Villain holds KK

[/ QUOTE ]
magic 8ball handread goooood.

[Woolygimp]

Seriously don't be so f***ing technical. Raising to 60 and having someone raise to 120 is "effectively" a min-raise.

[BoxTree]

Results:

Hero bets $300 on the turn. Villain folds and says, "Okay, quad eights are good," as he winks at me. Now I'm even more scared than I was before.

[Woolygimp]

If you're that scared or that unsure of yourself you need to immediately stand up from the table and find somewhere else to play.

[TheWorstPlayer]

no u dont

[Riverman]

In general when players minraise in NL I assume they suck. You dont tell us why you think your opponent is good so we don't know his tendencies. I havent read the replies to see if im alone here but I think the minraise screams AA or KK more often than not. For this reason I am mucking preflop or on flop if I care about my image.

[Sephus]

[ QUOTE ]
In general when players minraise in NL I assume they suck. You dont tell us why you think your opponent is good so we don't know his tendencies. I havent read the replies to see if im alone here but I think the minraise screams AA or KK more often than not. For this reason I am mucking preflop or on flop if I care about my image.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think folding the flop is bad, but preflop? mucking preflop would be criminal.

[TheWorstPlayer]

why would you want your image to be weak/nitty? And it wasn't a min-raise. But it was a small raise, I agree. But a lot of good players will make that raise to build momentum (i.e. steal on the flop) and you will be playing right into their hands if you make their flop steals very effective just because of their cheap tactic preflop.

[Riverman]

Sorry it took so long to reply.

Unless the player often does small pre-flop reraising, my experience has been that such a play is usually indicitave of AA or KK. Although the player is described as good we dont know how or why hero thinks so. Obviously if other players pick see you making it 60 and folding for 60 more they will be more tricky to play against which is why I would probably call the reraise and fold the flop. I know you guys think Im crazy but its just my opinion.