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View Full Version : $215 Custer hand #2 - AKo whiffs v 2


tigerite
12-11-2005, 07:37 PM
PartyPoker - NL Texas Hold'em $200 Buy-in + $15 Entry Fee Tournament | Level: 2 - 7 players (Converter: PGC (http://client.pokergrader.com))

Button is 100/0/0.0 (1)
UTG+1 is 0/0/- (1)

Chip Counts:
Button: 990 Chips
SB: 1715 Chips
BB: 900 Chips
<font color="red">Hero: 2135 Chips</font>
UTG+1: 890 Chips
MP1: 2500 Chips
CO: 870 Chips

Hero is UTG with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Blinds are 15/30

PreFlop
<font color="red">Hero RAISES ($95)</font>, <font color="green">UTG+1 Calls</font>, <font color="blue">MP1 folds</font>, <font color="blue">CO folds</font>, <font color="green">Button Calls</font>
<font color="blue">SB folds</font>, <font color="blue">BB folds</font>

(3 players) FLOP: 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif ( Pot Size: 330 Chips )
<font color="red">Hero BETS ($250)</font>, <font color="blue">UTG+1 folds</font>, <font color="red">Button RAISES ($700)</font>
<font color="blue">Hero folds</font>

Final Pot:1280 Chips


Cont bet seems way too big to me. It's a very dry flop, I certainly wouldn't be betting this much with an overpair. I don't hate the cont bet so much, although you're getting called by a pocket pair a very high percentage of the time, from 77 and up.

J-Lo
12-11-2005, 07:45 PM
i think this was one of those, "if u play, you're gona hafta play for your whole stack" type of situations. I don't know how others read his bet, but he's betting 1/3rd of the villains' stack, essentailly their entire stack, and can still get away, no?

pooh74
12-11-2005, 07:58 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Cont bet seems way too big to me. It's a very dry flop, I certainly wouldn't be betting this much with an overpair. I don't hate the cont bet so much, although you're getting called by a pocket pair a very high percentage of the time, from 77 and up.

[/ QUOTE ]

True, but they have to consider that Hero as the original raiser has an overpair a lot here too, and are they willing to go the distance on their "77".

I would be betting around this much with an overpair a lot of the time with TWO OPPONENTS, maybe not 1.

12-11-2005, 08:01 PM
I hate the big c-bet. Seems like spewing to me, as a cheaper bet probably has almost as much FE.

Jason Strasser
12-11-2005, 08:10 PM
You should be cbetting more with your big hands.

I like a pot sized cbet because people will rarely make moves at you. Thats more of a general statement. But I feel like the higher level games you play the more likely a good player will see a 1/2 pot cbet and just raise you all day. That may be what your looking for, but most likely not.

The larger cbet you make also means that an opponent will have to commit larger portions of his stack when he decides to stay in the hand. So you essentially control when the pots get really big. The difference in chips is not a ton and in the scheme of a SNG the difference between saving a few chips on a cbet isnt nearly as important as what you can do with bigger cbets.

-Jason

Maulik
12-11-2005, 08:47 PM
as strassa said you're looking to get raised---

here it looks to me the c-bet is too small if anything.

KingDan
12-11-2005, 08:55 PM
Do you still fire CB most hands you raise preflop?

I'd imagine you would have to cut back a good amount.

Maulik
12-11-2005, 09:00 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Do you still fire CB most hands you raise preflop?

I'd imagine you would have to cut back a good amount.

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends more so on how often you raise PF, no?

ilya
12-12-2005, 12:55 AM
[ QUOTE ]

The larger cbet you make also means that an opponent will have to commit larger portions of his stack when he decides to stay in the hand. So you essentially control when the pots get really big. The difference in chips is not a ton and in the scheme of a SNG the difference between saving a few chips on a cbet isnt nearly as important as what you can do with bigger cbets.

-Jason

[/ QUOTE ]

don't you think that in this particular hand a smaller c-bet of about 175 would still make either Villain feel like they had to commit their whole stack to continue, while leaving them more exposed when they raise cos the pot is smaller?

Custer
12-12-2005, 11:16 AM
"don't you think that in this particular hand a smaller c-bet of about 175 would still make either Villain feel like they had to commit their whole stack to continue, while leaving them more exposed when they raise cos the pot is smaller? "

It might, it might not. For 75 more chips (which have some equity because I might win the pot anyway when my opponent calls), is it worth taking a chance that the opponent doesn't view both bet sizes the same way?

moses

12-12-2005, 11:32 AM
Is it really necessary to bet this flop? (no sarcasm, honest question)

ilya
12-12-2005, 03:39 PM
[ QUOTE ]
"don't you think that in this particular hand a smaller c-bet of about 175 would still make either Villain feel like they had to commit their whole stack to continue, while leaving them more exposed when they raise cos the pot is smaller? "

It might, it might not. For 75 more chips (which have some equity because I might win the pot anyway when my opponent calls), is it worth taking a chance that the opponent doesn't view both bet sizes the same way?

moses

[/ QUOTE ]

Just a quick clarification...are you actually trying to get them to fold a better hand, something like 66? Or are you just trying to prevent them from playing back with AK or a weaker no-pair?

curtains
12-12-2005, 04:08 PM
Sometimes these dry flops are actually bad bluffing flops for AK because the small/medium pairs aren't going anywhere.

tigerite
12-12-2005, 04:09 PM
Yeah, that was my thought here. But what would you do here? Personally I might even check..

curtains
12-12-2005, 04:40 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, that was my thought here. But what would you do here? Personally I might even check..

[/ QUOTE ]

I dunno, the normal play is to bet some amont like 150-250, but ok if you think there are very good chances that one of your two opponents have a pocket pair, then they arent going anywhere, so betting becomes stupid. In any case I think checking is fine. As a large stack I usually am more aggressive, but theres really no benefit to it here. The most common hands that youll get cold calls with in this spot PF, are some kind of pairs. I'm too concerned that at least one of my two opponents have one.

Jason Strasser
12-12-2005, 07:30 PM
Who said anything about bluffing, Curtains?

The reason you are betting the flop here isnt to get worse hands to fold....... I sometimes bet flop sometimes check flop, depends on my opponent. If he's not going to bluff a lot or value bet correctly Im more likely to check. If he's a good player I'll pot it.

-jason

bruce
12-12-2005, 07:57 PM
I couldn't have said it any better myself, but I'm not a Dukey.

With the release of HOH everyone now knows what a cbet is. Observant players will pick off small cbet's with air all day long. Your best defense is making the cbet bigger. He now has to risk more to rob you.

Barry Greenstein was doing the color for Live at the Bike and this is exactly what he said. I began a thread in the MTT section regarding this around four months ago and Barry
responded to the thread a few times.
Jason must have been listening to Barry or Barry read this first.

Bruce

12-12-2005, 08:25 PM
[ QUOTE ]

With the release of HOH everyone now knows what a cbet is. Observant players will pick off small cbet's with air all day long. Your best defense is making the cbet bigger. He now has to risk more to rob you.


[/ QUOTE ]

I hate it when people make assumptions on typical $215 players. I doubt this player has read HOH, and might not be an observant player. Molding opponents into a depiction of you is not something you should do.

curtains
12-12-2005, 08:34 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Who said anything about bluffing, Curtains?

The reason you are betting the flop here isnt to get worse hands to fold....... I sometimes bet flop sometimes check flop, depends on my opponent. If he's not going to bluff a lot or value bet correctly Im more likely to check. If he's a good player I'll pot it.

-jason

[/ QUOTE ]

There are two opponents, not one. You are implying a single opponent.

curtains
12-12-2005, 08:39 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Who said anything about bluffing, Curtains?

The reason you are betting the flop here isnt to get worse hands to fold....... I sometimes bet flop sometimes check flop, depends on my opponent. If he's not going to bluff a lot or value bet correctly Im more likely to check. If he's a good player I'll pot it.

-jason

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW the reason I bet this flop is to get worse hands to fold, since I know there is little chance that better hands than mine will fold. I check this more than I bet it.

bruce
12-12-2005, 08:41 PM
HOH is a blockbuster seller per Amazon. I have no idea how
many $215 players have read it, but at live events I'm willing to guestimate that almost half the entrants into an event have read the book and if a reader remembers anything it's the concept of a continuation bet.

Is there a correlation between live MTT's and SNG's, at least as far as what people read? I have no idea. But
I'm pretty certain that a great deal of players know what
a cbet is. Do they understand it? Probably not.

Yea, it's a mistake to assume that your opposition thinks the way you do. I think that is one of my biggest leaks.

Bruce