OESFD on paired board

[bizaff]

Villain is 20/6/2.7 over 200 hands.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero ($148.85)
UTG+1 ($157.05)
MP1 ($37.25)
MP2 ($139.75)
MP3 ($41.35)
CO ($92)
Button ($233.80)
SB ($228.10)
BB ($65.40)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $4</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls $4, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>.

Flop: ($9.50) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $7</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises to $14</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero debates how much to reraise.</font>

[bizaff]

bump

[GrunchCan]

If you're going to re-raiise, it needs to be all-in. I'd just call, however.

[scrapperdog]

Is there anything wrong with seeing what the turn brings before you start putting tons of chips in here?

[Godfather80]

[ QUOTE ]
Villain is 20/6/2.7 over 200 hands.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero ($148.85)
UTG+1 ($157.05)
MP1 ($37.25)
MP2 ($139.75)
MP3 ($41.35)
CO ($92)
Button ($233.80)
SB ($228.10)
BB ($65.40)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $4</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls $4, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>.

Flop: ($9.50) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $7</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises to $14</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero debates how much to reraise.</font>

[/ QUOTE ]

I call and lead the turn, but I'd love to see some arguments for raising. I'm having trouble seeing what Villain is raising with that we want to play a huge pot against. We are getting a great price for our draw on the turn, but we are OOP so a raise from us will not get us a free card. Thoughts?

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd love to see some arguments for raising

[/ QUOTE ]

Two arguments for raising:
- Hero has an ewuity edge
- Hero's semibluff may push opponent off a better hand

There are problems with these arguments, however. First, if 5the opponent has 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, we don't have an equity edge.

Second, many better hands won't fold, such as trips.

[EMcWilliams]

Hero should probably just call and see how the turn develops. Even if you make your hand it might be NG, so remember that.

[GHL]

Anyone have a problem with raising 4 BBs UTG with a drawing hand that plays best with a few more players and some more dead money in the pot? Why would you want to play a hand like TJ suited OOP most likely HU?

It is hard to say what he holds at this point... a MP player cold called a UTG raise... you should be holding a quality show down type hand calling raises from UTG in that spot given there are a lot of players behind to act... I would doubt he has a set.... Against an over pair you're only 48/52.. and against something like A8 you're around 59/41.... I don't see a whole lot of overpairs at this limit folding.... and no way an 8 folds at this limit ever... so I would think calling here is best and pushing a good turn card...

what if a brick falls on the turn and you didn't push on the flop?

[djoyce003]

Hero has to play carefully even if he makes his hand. He could be up against the boat, and if a 7 falls making hero's straight he could still be behind a boat because 87 is a likely hand for villain to have if he has an 8. I don't think pushing is a great idea even if hero hits his hand because I think it folds out what we beat and doesn't fold out what beats us.

Q or 7 Hearts gives you straight flush. You'll stack him if he's got the full house. However, 2 of 46 outs are not good odds. The other Q, and 7 are often crying hands, particularly Q where AK kills you.
Mean while, you have nayda. Nutttin. Zip. Ever hear of restraint. With probable trips on board you won't bluff him off this pot. Call.

[Godfather80]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd love to see some arguments for raising

[/ QUOTE ]

Two arguments for raising:
- Hero has an ewuity edge
- Hero's semibluff may push opponent off a better hand

There are problems with these arguments, however. First, if 5the opponent has 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, we don't have an equity edge.

Second, many better hands won't fold, such as trips.

[/ QUOTE ]

Grunch, what's your line here? If you were to call (as I would), would you lead any turn for 2/3?

[bizaff]

I agree - reraise all-in is what I did, which upon further review, I don't like against an unsuckful player on a paired board.

[bizaff]

Not at all, and I think I prefer this line.

[bizaff]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero ($148.85)
UTG+1 ($157.05)
MP1 ($37.25)
MP2 ($139.75)
MP3 ($41.35)
CO ($92)
Button ($233.80)
SB ($228.10)
BB ($65.40)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $4</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls $4, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>.

Flop: ($9.50) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $7</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises to $14</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $144.85</font>, MP2 calls $121.75 (All-In).

Turn: ($290.10) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

River: ($290.10) K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: $290.10

Results:
Hero has Th Jh (one pair, eights).
MP2 has 9c 9s (full house, nines full of eights).
Outcome: MP2 wins $281. Hero wins $9.10.

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1400757
pokenum -h jh th - ah 2h -- 8c 8h 9h
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing 8c 9h 8h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Jh Th 447 45.15 534 53.94 9 0.91 0.456
Ah 2h 534 53.94 447 45.15 9 0.91 0.544

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1400758
pokenum -h jh th - ac 8s -- 8c 8h 9h
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing 8c 9h 8h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Jh Th 423 42.73 564 56.97 3 0.30 0.429
8s Ac 564 56.97 423 42.73 3 0.30 0.571

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1400759
pokenum -h jh th - ac 9s -- 8c 8h 9h
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing 8c 9h 8h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Jh Th 636 64.24 354 35.76 0 0.00 0.642
9s Ac 354 35.76 636 64.24 0 0.00 0.358

Oo, hey, there's one I'm ahead.

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1400760
pokenum -h jh th - ac as -- 8c 8h 9h
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing 8c 9h 8h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Jh Th 483 48.79 507 51.21 0 0.00 0.488
As Ac 507 51.21 483 48.79 0 0.00 0.512

Only better hands will call me. Way better hands. I don't think I'm being results oriented, but I don't like this line on a paired board.

[tree_stump]

What's your read of the villain?

At this limit, I'm having trouble believing he's raising here without an 8, and given the cold call (a bad raise, may I add) and a flop raise, I'm thinking he's got a pocket pair... 8s or 9s.

The all-in re-raise, imo, is an awful move. In many cases, you only have 2 outs and there's almost not a case I can think of where your straight is good given the action.

[bizaff]

I hadn't seen anything out of line from him. I agree, the min-raise doesn't really accomplish much.. well, accept getting me to push /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I don't like the push anymore either. If the straight isn't any good, I don't see how the flush can be good either.