Right situation to wait to turn for raise w/overpair?

[Luke]

.5-1.00 PP 9 players in this hand. Loose game w/slightly more aggression than what is normal for these games.

I'm UTG w/QcQd and raise. Call, fold, call, call, call, fold, fold, and BB calls. So 6 to the flop for 6 and a quarter big bets.

Flop [ 6c, 4h, 9c ]

BB bets, I call, call, call, fold, call. 5 of us to the turn.

Turn [ 6c, 4h, 9c ] 2d

BB bets, I raise, fold, fold, fold, call.

River [ 6c, 4h, 9c, 2d ] Qh

Check, I bet, call and I take it down. (BB had Ac9d).

What do you think of my play?

Normally I would have raised the flop but I'm trying to incorporate the idea of waiting until the turn to raise w/overpairs and TPTK in these loose games.

Is this the right application of that concept? Or am I committing suicide by allowing Ax and Kx to see the turn for 1 bet?

My feeling is that the flush draw is seeing the turn and most likely the river no matter what - so I should charge them the 2 big bets on the turn. Correct thinking?

I would have played this the same most likely if I held JJ, KK or AA. That make sense?

All thoughts and comments welcome. Thanks in advance.

Luke

[JohnShaft]

You played it fine.

As for waiting for the turn to raise or raising straight out on the flop it depends on a number of factors.

Including:
The lower your overpair, the better off you are raising on the flop (to get the many raggy overcards to fold there and then). JJ I think I'd be raising the flop most of the time, QQ is borderline for me (and situation specific).

If you aren't going to get them out (of a largish pot) for a double bet on the flop the better it is often better to raise the turn.

If you don't always raise the flop with the overpair then it also lets them know that your flat call on the flop doesn't always mean a missed AK, and licence to bet the turn with any raggy pair...

[Nottom]

I'd raise that flop because of the flush draw, make it a rainbow flop and I'm more likely to maybe try and be tricky. I also would generally save this kind of play for KK or AA since there are less overcards to hurt you.

As for the whole "the flush draw will call anyway" argument, yes you are correct. But what you don't want is for a singleton club to pickup the flush draw on the turn because you didn't push him out. Not to mention if a 3rd club does come in, you've killed your action even if you are still ahead.

[STOSH1]

Raise the flop, charge any draws that want to come along. If you could see the other 5 hands and they had 4 /forums/images/icons/club.gif 5 /forums/images/icons/club.gif , 7 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif 8 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif , A /forums/images/icons/heart.gif 10 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif , and K /forums/images/icons/club.gif x /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif would you want them drawing at you almost for free. Your hand is vunerable, I would knock out as many as soon as possible.

[lil']

Raise the flop. Your hand is nice but vulnerable. Why let someone draw cheaply on you when you likey have the best hand? By only calling, any pair has the correct odds to try and make trips or 2 pair. Also, there are overcards out there you don't want to see. This is less of a problem with K-K and A-A, as someone already mentioned.

[Ed Miller]

This is not an appropriate spot to do this. First, the pot isn't really quite big enough... when you raise, the field faces calling two cold for which they are only getting 8-1. The weak draws that this play is designed to eliminate are not getting appropriate odds at 8-1, so you are perfectly happy to have them call.

Also, you did identify the other problem in your post. Your hand is QQ, which means that two overcards can come and beat you. It wouldn't have been quite as bad if you held AA instead. You should have raised the flop here with QQ, though.

[bernie]

they are being faced with an immediate 8-1. counting the probable call of the original bettor. the thing is, if 1 player calls, then it is correct for the next 5 outer to call. and it's only borderline for the first caller if he flopped a pair.

i agree that QQ is about the limit. JJ you can knock out a lone Q or K maybe even the A. since someone is betting the flush isnt getting a free card.

i also like the thought about the AK. nice thought there.

but it's also fun to jam an overpair on the flop too. especially if someone will jam a draw. which can negate the value of waiting for the turn since then youre killing the effective odds of anyone calling in between.

b

[baseball38]

I would definately charge them to see the turn and the flop, plus if you raise on the flop you might get the A with a weak kicker out since you were utg and stayed preflop.

baseball38 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif

[Luke]

Thanks to all who responded. After thinking about this hand, I know it was a misappplication of this strategic play.

This thread helped me a little more to understand this play but I'm still somewhat confused. Part of my confusion regarding this play stems from a post a few weeks ago where Clarkmeister explained this play and said:

"This one move is one of the most critical weapons in a winning players loose game arsenal. Also note that it is far more correct to use with top pair of 9's, T's, J's or Q's than K's or A's. With top pair of kings or aces, its usually better to jam up the flop, unless the board is very very scary."

(I apologize if by taking this out of context if I didn't do the statements justice. This was a great post by the way).

Clarkmeister's comments seem contradictory to what others in the current thread are saying. PLEASE correct me where I'm wrong, but I'll attempt to explain how I interpret what was said:

The difference between what Clarkmeister is saying and what the others in this thread are saying come as a result of the pot size and vulnerability to overcards. Clarkmeister was saying that because the pot was large and overcards to the board were plentiful, overcards would be correct to call a flop raise. And by waiting until you see the turn to raise, you can now see if you have fallen behind because of a turned overcard (you would have even if you had raised the flop) or have become a greater favorite. If you have become a greater favorite, you can then raise the turn and charge 2 big bets making it incorrect for the overcards to see the river. With aces or kings in the case of a larger pot, you can jam away on the flop as you don't need to be so careful to protect against overcards - you just want to charge the crappy draws the maximum.

In the case of my hand, I had an opportunity to charge the entire field 2 bets on the flop, in a pot that is not terribly large. Thus I could make it incorrect for Ax or Kx to call my flop raise. The fact that I'm to immediate left of the bettor is nice and I should take advantage of it on the flop.

How does that sound? Am I any closer to understanding this type of play or have I drifted off into the night?

If I was last to act, how would that have changed people's advice?

By the way, in this hand, I tried this play not to be cute and create a larger pot, but in an attempt to maximize my chances of winning the pot. I now see how I failed in that mission (even though I happened to win).

Luke