Is it OK to cold call in this situation?

[Matt Williams]

I was down in AC the last 2 days playing 4/8 and there was this guy who was extremely LAG. He would raise every time he entered in a pot, no matter what 2 cards he had. Then postflop, he would either bet or raise. Once the river came, then he would either bet or fold. He lost about $350 in the 2 hrs. he was there, but that's beside the point. There were 2 situations where I wanted to limp in as the button but folded because he had raised. The first time, I had K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif and 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. The 2nd time, I had J /images/graemlins/spade.gif and K /images/graemlins/heart.gif. I folded both hands because I didn't want to cold call with them. Needless to say, both times the LAG was raising with garbage. Is it OK to call call here, or did I make the right move?

[soko]

calling would be wrong.

you should raise to isolate or fold if you don't think it will isolate.

[UCLAseetoK]

Raise to isolate if you're feelin LAGgy...

Definitely do not just call though.

[shark6]

Raise is ok if it's likely you can isolate him. Otherwise fold.

[Matt Williams]

This was 4/8 at the Trop. It's an extremely loose game.
On both hands, 3 had limped in before he raised. Had I raised, I may have gotten the blinds to fold but I would have still been against 4. Isolating him here wouldn't work. There were 3 occasions I was able to isolate by re-raising when he was UTG and I was in MP.

[Matt Williams]

[ QUOTE ]
Raise is ok if it's likely you can isolate him. Otherwise fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea, that's basically what I did. Glad to see others agree.

[silkyslim]

[ QUOTE ]
I was down in AC the last 2 days playing 4/8 and there was this guy who was extremely LAG. He would raise every time he entered in a pot, no matter what 2 cards he had. Then postflop, he would either bet or raise. Once the river came, then he would either bet or fold. He lost about $350 in the 2 hrs. he was there, but that's beside the point. There were 2 situations where I wanted to limp in as the button but folded because he had raised. The first time, I had K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif and 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. The 2nd time, I had J /images/graemlins/spade.gif and K /images/graemlins/heart.gif. I folded both hands because I didn't want to cold call with them. Needless to say, both times the LAG was raising with garbage. Is it OK to call call here, or did I make the right move?

[/ QUOTE ]
3-bet!!!!!!!

[Matt Williams]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I was down in AC the last 2 days playing 4/8 and there was this guy who was extremely LAG. He would raise every time he entered in a pot, no matter what 2 cards he had. Then postflop, he would either bet or raise. Once the river came, then he would either bet or fold. He lost about $350 in the 2 hrs. he was there, but that's beside the point. There were 2 situations where I wanted to limp in as the button but folded because he had raised. The first time, I had K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif and 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. The 2nd time, I had J /images/graemlins/spade.gif and K /images/graemlins/heart.gif. I folded both hands because I didn't want to cold call with them. Needless to say, both times the LAG was raising with garbage. Is it OK to call call here, or did I make the right move?

[/ QUOTE ]
3-bet!!!!!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

I would have if I knew I could isolate him. But I knew 3-betting wouldn't get anyone to fold except MAYBE the blinds.

As many have stated, 3-betting is your best option here. Though, I gotta disagree with some of the advice given on calling. I think calling with position vs. a LAG can indeed be profitable for a few reasons, including:

-It's likely the entire table has loosened its calling range to cater for the LAG, and thus it's less likely you're pre-dominated, etc.

-You’ll have great implied odds, and will often be paid off very well when you hit.

-Depending on your position, you may be able to isolate the LAG on the flop when you catch a vulnerable hand/draw.

-I think you're passing up many +EV situations when you fold a hand with sufficient equity to call on.

The point I'm trying to convey is there are many instances when calling is far superior to folding. For example, I'd definitely overcall in the following situation. Suppose 3 loose/passive opponents limped, and the LAG raised from MP. You're the CO with KTs, and suspect raising will rarely isolate the LAG. I think the above is a clear-cut example of a great place to overcall. While many situations will rarely be this straight-forward, I think you must give stronger consideration to calling 2 cold in the more marginal situations.

While 3-betting is obviously superior, calling is often a great alternative when some of the benefits of reraising are blunted down, i.e. inability to isolate. Folding may often be the worse line, and may cost you potential profit. Try to open up your cold calling range verse the LAG accordingly.

[lerxst337]

[ QUOTE ]
As many have stated, 3-betting is your best option here. Though, I gotta disagree with some of the advice given on calling. I think calling with position vs. a LAG can indeed be profitable for a few reasons, including:

-It's likely the entire table has loosened its calling range to cater for the LAG, and thus it's less likely you're pre-dominated, etc.

-You’ll have great implied odds, and will often be paid off very well when you hit.

-Depending on your position, you may be able to isolate the LAG on the flop when you catch a vulnerable hand/draw.

-I think you're passing up many +EV situations when you fold a hand with sufficient equity to call on.

The point I'm trying to convey is there are many instances when calling is far superior to folding. For example, I'd definitely overcall in the following situation. Suppose 3 loose/passive opponents limped, and the LAG raised from MP. You're the CO with KTs, and suspect raising will rarely isolate the LAG. I think the above is a clear-cut example of a great place to overcall. While many situations will rarely be this straight-forward, I think you must give stronger consideration to calling 2 cold in the more marginal situations.

While 3-betting is obviously superior, calling is often a great alternative when some of the benefits of reraising are blunted down, i.e. inability to isolate. Folding may often be the worse line, and may cost you potential profit. Try to open up your cold calling range verse the LAG accordingly.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. I am cetainly more than most a raise or fold guy, but many are overlooking some situations where you are losing alot of value by folding OR raising. Hands like small pocket pairs, one-gappers, etc. If you are going to get customers, then if you are in position go ahead and take a flop. Just keeping mind that if you have a very strong multi-way hand, like high suited cards, go ahead and 3-bet, because even if you are not able to isolate, you still likely have equity.

[crunchy1]

I don't understand why everyone seems against calling with K9s. We have a hand that plays well in a multi-way pot (there were 3 limpers) in position. We also have good relative position on the LAG if we flop a pair on a favorable textured board. I think this is a lot closer between raising or calling, rather than raising of folding.

[silkyslim]

given your table conditions i could cold call with some suited hands
but not AT or KJo. i mean, just because he is raising with garbage doesnt negate the fact that you need to pay 2 bets pf. so i wouldnt loosen up my CC standards. id 3-bet more liberally though.

Yeah, I think the main thing to realize here is you can't be to stringent when cold calling a LAG. By doing so, you'll often pass up on several situations with strong positive expectation.

Another point worth mentioning, LAGs will often bust early and therefore you should take advantage of every opportunity to extract some $ from them. Verse LAGS, in particular, I think it's good to make a big effort to push small edges preflop, as the payoff is often very rewarding.

Cold calling can be profitable; you just need to find the right spots to do it. Playing verse a LAG, who raises too much, is a prime example.

[silkyslim]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I think the main thing to realize here is you can't be to stringent when cold calling a LAG. By doing so, you'll often pass up on several situations with strong positive expectation.

Another point worth mentioning, LAGs will often bust early and therefore you should take advantage of every opportunity to extract some $ from them. Verse LAGS, in particular, I think it's good to make a big effort to push small edges preflop, as the payoff is often very rewarding.

Cold calling can be profitable; you just need to find the right spots to do it. Playing verse a LAG, who raises too much, is a prime example.

[/ QUOTE ]
i think this is bad advice, read Inside the Poker Mind, TOP, and HEPFAP for further discussion

[ QUOTE ]

i think this is bad advice, read Inside the Poker Mind, TOP, and HEPFAP for further discussion


[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for shedding so much light on this issue through such a well thought out response...

I've read both TOP and HEPFAP, can't say I've read Inside the Poker Mind, plus numerous other texts, and have found nothing that even remotely contradicts my above advice. I've also had numerous encounters with LAGs, and believe the above advice to be sound. I am by no means advocating wild cold calling, rather overcalling when you can't isolate and hold a hard that will play well vs. a large field. Please enlighten me to the problem with this?

I find it a little insulting that you contributed pretty much nothing here, and try to contradict my thought out advice with a generic 'read this' response. Put some time into your responses and I may take you seriously.

[silkyslim]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

i think this is bad advice, read Inside the Poker Mind, TOP, and HEPFAP for further discussion


[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for shedding so much light on this issue through such a well thought out response...

I've read both TOP and HEPFAP, can't say I've read Inside the Poker Mind, plus numerous other texts, and have found nothing that even remotely contradicts my above advice. I've also had numerous encounters with LAGs, and believe the above advice to be sound. I am by no means advocating wild cold calling, rather overcalling when you can't isolate and hold a hard that will play well vs. a large field. Please enlighten me to the problem with this?

I find it a little insulting that you contributed pretty much nothing here, and try to contradict my thought out advice with a generic 'read this' response. Put some time into your responses and I may take you seriously.

[/ QUOTE ]
lol, you crazy. chill out bra. read my above post. and Inside the poker mind does a good job explaining why cold calling LAGs is not the answer.

[MJL]

[ QUOTE ]
I would have if I knew I could isolate him. But I knew 3-betting wouldn't get anyone to fold except MAYBE the blinds.


[/ QUOTE ]

Raising may not isolate but if you get the A /images/graemlins/diamond.gifrag, K rag,JT etc out because they won't pay 2 bets you accomplished your goal. Most likely to call are broadway and pocket pairs. If they all are so fishy they would call 2 or 3bets your in heaven.

[Matt Williams]

Thanks for the responses everyone. As you can probably guess, had I played both hands I would have won. I didn't take equity into consideration when I folded. Also, I didn't realize until after the fact that by acting after him, I could have raised when the flop hit thus isolating him.

[ QUOTE ]

lol, you crazy. chill out bra. read my above post. and Inside the poker mind does a good job explaining why cold calling LAGs is not the answer.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't need to read a book to understand the correct play here. Not opening your cold calling range verse a player who raises T5o is incorrect. This is a basic expectation decision, and we'll often have +EV with hands like KTs, A9s, etc. when 3 or so loose players limp and a LAG raises. I don't understand how you can dispute this.

Anyway, I've given my thoughts on this, and don't have much to add. I'm not angry at all, and apologize if you interrupted my tone the wrong way.

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
Raising may not isolate but if you get the A /images/graemlins/diamond.gifrag, K rag,JT etc out because they won't pay 2 bets you accomplished your goal.

[/ QUOTE ]
LIVE 4/8 players are NOT folding these hands before the flop.

[Matt Williams]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raising may not isolate but if you get the A /images/graemlins/diamond.gifrag, K rag,JT etc out because they won't pay 2 bets you accomplished your goal.

[/ QUOTE ]
LIVE 4/8 players are NOT folding these hands before the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

You said it. I remember about a month ago I capped pre-flop with pocket Aces. Guess who won the hand? The guy that called $16 preflop with a 2-4offsuit. Why? He had to "defend" his big blind. It's reasons like this that I spend most of my time in casinos and not online.

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raising may not isolate but if you get the A /images/graemlins/diamond.gifrag, K rag,JT etc out because they won't pay 2 bets you accomplished your goal.

[/ QUOTE ]
LIVE 4/8 players are NOT folding these hands before the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

You said it. I remember about a month ago I capped pre-flop with pocket Aces. Guess who won the hand? The guy that called $16 preflop with a 2-4offsuit. Why? He had to "defend" his big blind. It's reasons like this that I spend most of my time in casinos and not online.

[/ QUOTE ]
There are plenty of players online that do this as well. And online players feast on them at anywhere from 2-5x the rate of a LIVE player.

[badbill7]

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


lol, you crazy. chill out bra. read my above post. and Inside the poker mind does a good job explaining why cold calling LAGs is not the answer.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I don't need to read a book to understand the correct play here. Not opening your cold calling range verse a player who raises T5o is incorrect. This is a basic expectation decision, and we'll often have +EV with hands like KTs, A9s, etc. when 3 or so loose players limp and a LAG raises. I don't understand how you can dispute this.

Anyway, I've given my thoughts on this, and don't have much to add. I'm not angry at all, and apologize if you interrupted my tone the wrong way.

the thought here is that against a maniac you actually tighten up you standards a bit. The reasoning is that just because someone raises crap doesnt mean that playing a hand with small ev is now very positive ev. In fact the opposite is what happens. The small ev hand now has to pay more for small ev. I think i agree with playing k9s not sure i three bet here. Maybey another two callers and i 3 bet this. would be interesting to run this on ps. the kj i think is an automatic throw away no cc and no three bet. Just my thoughts and im usually wrong but that is how ive understood playing against maniacs and extreme lags.

[Net Warrior]

This is an interesting discussion. I agree that KJo is a muck here. I think K9s is a borderline ok coldcall vs 2 limpers and a LAG raiser. I was wondering what others thought regarding the lower limit of suited calling hands. Axs seems ok, as does QTs, JTs. Anyone willing to call with worse here?

When there is a LAG player like there or a LAG table in general, I tend to tighten up even more. Never cold call, its almost always better to re-raise.

[oxymoron]

[ QUOTE ]
This is an interesting discussion. I agree that KJo is a muck here. I think K9s is a borderline ok coldcall vs 2 limpers and a LAG raiser. I was wondering what others thought regarding the lower limit of suited calling hands. Axs seems ok, as does QTs, JTs. Anyone willing to call with worse here?

[/ QUOTE ]

With position I would also play hands that play well in a multiway pot like suited connectors especially at a live game.

[jat850]

I'll expand on what some people have implied - raise to isolate or fold appears to be the concensus opinion. Part of that is paying attention NOT to the maniac raiser, but to the limpers. THEY ARE YOUR MAIN CONCERN while the maniac gets what he wants, which is to be the center of attention. It is your position + your review of the limpers play that should determine whether you raise, fold and/or tighten/loosen play at the table with the maniac. If your limpers are folding a lot and only playing quality hands, you must tighten up, too. Since you mentioned lots of players, if their standards are looser, you can loosen up selectively, i.e. with position, but reads will be more difficult.

I love it when a table kind of tag teams the maniac by only playing quality hands. If the table does that, its does not take long to bring the maniac to his financial knees and the table gets to split the proceeds.

[gopnik]

it really depends who else is in and if you can isolate the guy. JKo is not a bad hand to isolate a maniac. K9s is probably a fold

[gopnik]

Trop rules, the loosest games in AC. Although, somehow I always loose when I play there