A5s and JJ. Opinions please. [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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12-11-2005, 12:52 PM

First hand is A5s in the BB. Should I have 4 bet the river? and how about the flop and turn?

SB is complete clueless person. Calling river with king high. Playing 93suited in the early position. The hand:

PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
1 fold, MP1 calls, 2 folds, Button calls, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (4 SB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
SB bets, Hero calls, MP1 calls, Button calls.

Turn: (4 BB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
SB bets, Hero calls, MP1 calls, Button folds.

River: (7 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, MP1 folds, SB 3-bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 13 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has Ad 5d (flush, ace high).
SB has 6d Kd (flush, king high).
Outcome: Hero wins 13 BB. 

Second hand. I have JJ. On the flop there is overcard. I figured out, my implied odds were 1:19 and in really best possible case 1:23. I was 1: 22.5 underdog. There were all kind of draws on the board and 4 people. JT, QJ, KJ may already have my outs. So I folded on the flop. Correct decision? Please tell me.

PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, CO calls, 1 fold, SB completes, Hero raises, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, SB folds.

Flop: (11 SB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, MP2 calls, CO calls, Hero folds, UTG calls.

Turn: (7.50 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, MP2 calls, CO calls, UTG calls.

River: (11.50 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, MP2 folds, CO folds, UTG raises, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 15.50 BB

Results in white below: 
UTG has Tc Qh (straight, king high).
UTG+1 has Qs Ks (one pair, kings).
Outcome: UTG wins 15.50 BB.

Doc7

12-11-2005, 12:58 PM

hand one: pound that flop!!

hand 1, hand 2: don't post result / stuff that happens after you fold.

i would have called that flop, that pot is big enough

Vote4Pedro

12-11-2005, 12:59 PM

Hand1: raise it up on the turn...you might get some pairs or straight draws to tag along

Hand2: Getting 14:1, you can definitely peel with your set outs, BDFD, as well as BDSD.

12-11-2005, 01:08 PM

Hand 1 - I am torn between raising the flop or the turn. Either way, I think you need to raise in one of those two spots. Now knowing what the turn, I say raise that since it looks like a straight just as much as a flush. Good chance of getting 3bet.

Hand 2 - good fold

Hand 2 -

12-11-2005, 01:12 PM

What you mean pound that flop?

I didn't raise the turn not to lose any customers. There were still 3 others on the turn. And once on river on top pair might even decide to call as well. I don't think raising the turn in this situation will give you max. expectation in the long run.

I didn't reraise the 3 better because he might have an 8, like J8 or Q8. He would definitely play his gutshot.

12-11-2005, 01:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand1: raise it up on the turn...you might get some pairs or straight draws to tag along

Hand2: Getting 14:1, you can definitely peel with your set outs, BDFD, as well as BDSD.

[/ QUOTE ]

With so many limpers I think you definitely have discounted outs. For a set you need 1:22.5 on the turn. There is still flush draw. Nah, who agrees with me that calling this flop is bad? You max is really 1:24 on the flop to turn. And there are 3 opponents.

12-11-2005, 01:20 PM

Damn, I really doubt, raise the hand A5s on the flop? I really didn't want to lose any limpers. Going for a c/r on the turn/river there was big probability 2 people would call my raise. and then lead out the river.

I would raise the flop against 1 opponent though.

Leak?

Vote4Pedro

12-11-2005, 01:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't reraise the 3 better because he might have an 8, like J8 or Q8. He would definitely play his gutshot.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly why we raise the turn, these hands are more than willing to pay you off. How would you feel if that river card filled him up? Would you complain of a bad beat?

AlmightyJay

12-11-2005, 01:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
First hand is A5s in the BB. Should I have 4 bet the river? and how about the flop and turn?

SB is complete clueless person. Calling river with king high. Playing 93suited in the early position. The hand:

PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
1 fold, MP1 calls, 2 folds, Button calls, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (4 SB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
SB bets, Hero calls, MP1 calls, Button calls.

Turn: (4 BB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
SB bets, Hero calls, MP1 calls, Button folds.

River: (7 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, MP1 folds, SB 3-bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 13 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has Ad 5d (flush, ace high).
SB has 6d Kd (flush, king high).
Outcome: Hero wins 13 BB. 

Second hand. I have JJ. On the flop there is overcard. I figured out, my implied odds were 1:19 and in really best possible case 1:23. I was 1: 22.5 underdog. There were all kind of draws on the board and 4 people. JT, QJ, KJ may already have my outs. So I folded on the flop. Correct decision? Please tell me.

PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, CO calls, 1 fold, SB completes, Hero raises, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, SB folds.

Flop: (11 SB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, MP2 calls, CO calls, Hero folds, UTG calls.

Turn: (7.50 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, MP2 calls, CO calls, UTG calls.

River: (11.50 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, MP2 folds, CO folds, UTG raises, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 15.50 BB

Results in white below: 
UTG has Tc Qh (straight, king high).
UTG+1 has Qs Ks (one pair, kings).
Outcome: UTG wins 15.50 BB. 

[/ QUOTE ]

In hand 1 I'm capping the river against such a terrible player. nh otherwise. Flop is potentially a raise to clean up A/K outs, but I don't think calling is bad either.

Hand 2 I'm betting this flop. You can't immediately assume you're behind just because a single overcard fell. If it was an A, maybe, but it's a K. If it's one bet back to me, I'm calling and folding the turn UI. Two or three back to me and I'm insta-folding.

Vote4Pedro

12-11-2005, 01:33 PM

It must be early, I didnt even notice that hero checked the flop w/ JJ. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

testaaja

12-11-2005, 04:09 PM

*grunch*
Hand 1: Raise the turn. Flushes will tag along and pay it.
Hand 2: Yes this fold is correct. There is a K and 2x/images/graemlins/club.gif on the board. 5 Players are in so it is possible you are drawing to your 2 outs (you got to reduce your outs because you can hit and still lose). There is no way you got the odds to call there.

12-11-2005, 04:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Damn, I really doubt, raise the hand A5s on the flop? I really didn't want to lose any limpers. Going for a c/r on the turn/river there was big probability 2 people would call my raise. and then lead out the river.

I would raise the flop against 1 opponent though.

Leak?

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW i totally agree with you, the river in hand 1 is possibly a thin value cap tho its pretty close.

hand 2 you have to lead out that flop, hand plays differently after that

12-11-2005, 10:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]

In hand 1 I'm capping the river against

[/ QUOTE ]

What does capping mean. It means raise to maximum right?

12-11-2005, 10:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
*grunch*
Hand 1: Raise the turn. Flushes will tag along and pay it.
Hand 2: Yes this fold is correct. There is a K and 2x/images/graemlins/club.gif on the board. 5 Players are in so it is possible you are drawing to your 2 outs (you got to reduce your outs because you can hit and still lose). There is no way you got the odds to call there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, I totally agree with you.

DCWildcat

12-11-2005, 10:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

In hand 1 I'm capping the river against

[/ QUOTE ]

What does capping mean. It means raise to maximum right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, almost always 4 bets online.

Hand 1- Don't worry about raising the flop--yes, you might forgo some outs, but the pot is small so it's not that bad.

Definately raise the turn. Any straight draw and anyone with a good diamond will still come along, so you'll still make $ from them.

Cap the river. If he's that clueless the chances he has a full house are far fewer than the times he's just being dumb. You miss a lot of value by not capping here.

DCWildcat

12-11-2005, 10:36 PM

Hand 2- we're very likely the best hand here. Since you were the aggressor PF (and can't get a reliable c/r from late position), you need to bet out. This pot is way too big to fold to A9/Q9.

If you check, you can peel. You have a bad backdoor flush and a bad backdoor straight. Combined, you can squeeze 1 out of of that. Combine that with your 2 J outs, and the large chance that you're still ahead, you should definately see the turn.

crovax4444

12-12-2005, 01:39 AM

*grunch*

Hand 1: 2 options, bet out on the turn and risk blowing away
MP1 and button, or call. I think you did the correct thing.

Played well except the river. On the river, I would have capped it. Do you really believe SB has 88, 8Q, 8J or 8T?

Hand 2: I would have prob checked the flop, but called the bet. It's a large pot and you have the odds to call. (14:1)
That was a really bad fold.

Crovax

Edit: Wow was I passive. I can't believe I didn't call him out for checking JJ on the flop. As for your outs to see the turn, your very wrong. You need 10.88:1 to see the turn. Your thinking of seeing it down to the river.

Wow, this is the worst example of my passiveness in a while.

Songwind

12-12-2005, 12:51 PM

*grunch*
Hand 1:
I play PF the same.
I play flop the same - I don't want to scare out the other two on this coordinated board.
Turn: Whoot! I think I raise here if either opponent has shown any desire to hang in on hands after they are done.
River: Ack! I do the same, but I'm confused. What 8-containing hand has he got on the flop that he's leading with? I call the 3-bet and hope he has a smaller flush.

Hand 2:
I play the same, and weep piteously on the turn. :P

12-12-2005, 04:56 PM

Grunch

Hand 1
You flopped draws to the nut straight and nut flush, you should be raising this up every chance you get. The only place I slow down maybe is on the river when the board pairs because I feel stupid capping without the nuts and losing to the nuts.

Hand 2
You probably need to check-raise this flop if you aren't going to continuation bet it. As it is you got away cheap, but if you constantly raise pre-flop and fold to a bet on any flop that misses you, you will be in trouble.

bozlax

12-12-2005, 05:19 PM

Hand 1: good up to the turn, raise the turn. Lots of hands will stick with you to the river. Cap the turn if you can and the river against Mr. Clueless. He might have a straight, a worse flush, trip 8s, anything. This is a situation where if you lose less than the max, you're not playing hard enough.

Hand 2: saints preserve us from the weak-tightness. If you raise preflop and check the flop of course some donk behind you is going to bet. Don't decide you're behind in the hand until somebody tells you you're behind, and a late position open-bet when you raised the BB preflop is NOT telling you you're behind.