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View Full Version : KK overpair on paired board -30/60

DeathDonkey
12-11-2005, 08:48 AM
BB in this hand was a bit of a LAG but otherwise unremarkable. He was probably 30/16 or so and we had no prior history I can remember. Button is a straight up LAG like 40/20 and I have a note that says "makes big bluffs w river followthroughs".

Should I get more bets in on any street? Can I get away from this at any point?

-DeathDonkey

Party Poker 30.00/60.00 Hold'em <font color="#0000FF">(9 handed)</font> link (http://www.darksun.lunarpages.com/poker/)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Button calls, SB calls, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (20.00 SB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG+1 folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button calls, SB folds, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, Hero calls, Button calls.

Turn: (14.50 BB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, BB folds, Hero calls.

River: (19.50 BB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 21.50 BB.
toss
12-11-2005, 09:34 AM
Can't fold the turn with a flush draw. Can't fold the river in a huge 20BB pot against a LAG that makes big bluffs with river follow throughs.
12-11-2005, 03:26 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Can't fold the turn with a flush draw. Can't fold the river in a huge 20BB pot against a LAG that makes big bluffs with river follow throughs.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with this statement, even though I cant see how you can possibly win this pot, since if the button doesnt have a Q or a flush, that would mean he was basically trying to pull off a mult-street bluff along with a protected pot bluffraise on the turn. I still think you have to call this river in this huge pot against this opponent. For what its worth, without the King of spades, I think you can fold this turn.
DeathDonkey
12-12-2005, 03:53 AM
Eh, I tried to find an interesting hand from my session but as I look back on this, I don't see what else I could have really done. The river was a crying crying call, but the crazy bastard had A/images/graemlins/spade.gif 7/images/graemlins/club.gif so I somehow took it down.

I'm a bit surprised no one suggested just calling on the flop, or raising on the turn.

-DeathDonkey
toss
12-12-2005, 05:07 AM
Well on the flop theres straight and flush draws out and the first bettor could have a ten. Raise for value and such.
12-12-2005, 07:19 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Eh, I tried to find an interesting hand from my session but as I look back on this, I don't see what else I could have really done. The river was a crying crying call, but the crazy bastard had A/images/graemlins/spade.gif 7/images/graemlins/club.gif so I somehow took it down.

I'm a bit surprised no one suggested just calling on the flop, or raising on the turn.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]
I never even thought about analyzing your flop play, but now that I look at it, I do think smooth calling is better than raising, becuz of the huge size of this pot.

Since a flop raise cannot protect your hand from any gutshot or a hand like AT, you are better off smooth calling the flop with the intention of raising the turn.

If the pot size was 10sb instead of 20sb, then you should raise the flop since AT and any gutshot now cannot call profitably.

If the pot size was somehow 5sb, you again should just call on the flop, since you now actually make money by letting AT or any gutshot stay in the hand becuz they will not have the odds to draw out against your hand.

So you get the idea, becuz of the size of the pot, calling the flop with the intention of raising the turn is the superior strategy to raising right away on the flop. Waiting til the turn to raise may only increase your probability of winning this pot by a few percentage points, but when the pot gets really large, increasing your chance of winning it is exactly what you want to do
DeathDonkey
12-12-2005, 07:37 AM
Hey Westley,

I just about totally agree with you but one thing I think you didn't mention is I do need to be sort of worried about the BB here. After he 3 bets preflop after a few coldcallers that flop isn't looking amazing for me. In this hand I actually raised the flop partially to charge draws, but mostly because I thought it would be cheaper the times I'm beat then waiting and raising the turn, getting 3 bet and paying it off. Of course the other choice would be call the flop, raise the turn, and fold to a 3 bet. But look what happened in this hand - I just don't think I can do that with crazy guy hanging around.

-DeathDonkey
12-12-2005, 03:40 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Hey Westley,

I just about totally agree with you but one thing I think you didn't mention is I do need to be sort of worried about the BB here. After he 3 bets preflop after a few coldcallers that flop isn't looking amazing for me. In this hand I actually raised the flop partially to charge draws, but mostly because I thought it would be cheaper the times I'm beat then waiting and raising the turn, getting 3 bet and paying it off. Of course the other choice would be call the flop, raise the turn, and fold to a 3 bet. But look what happened in this hand - I just don't think I can do that with crazy guy hanging around.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]
I understand why you are worried about the BB. I too would be worried about his holding. Of course if you just call on the flop, The BB wouldve never had a chance to make his posturing 3bet and thus nothing wouldve stopped you from executing your turn strategy and raising it up. And I understand that if you use this strategy of waiting til the turn to raise, that it will be more expensive when you lose. But when the pot gets this big I wouldnt worry about minimizing your loss the times you are trailing, your goal is to take the line that gives you the highest probability of winning this pot, even if this same line will be costlier than other lines when it backfires.

Put another way, even if you assume that you never fold to a turn 3 bet after you raise and you always call down and lose the maxium when your behind, I still think this strategy is superior becuz if you consistently take this line in these huge pots you will be increasing your probability of winning these pots by atleast a few percentage points and increasing your percentage chance of winning this large pot by just a small amount will more than make up for the extra bets you lose when this strategy backfires IMO.