I think I have to quit...(NC)

[jmillerdls]

Ok, so like every Saturday the last couple of months (and virtually everyday for that matter), I spent my time playing $20 SNG's. And after tonight, I feel like I have got to quit...go back to cash games.
I can't handle the beats...
After tonight, I have just under 2000 SNG's between the 10's and the 20's. Between the 2 I have a 13% ROI. I am a winning player, although as you can tell, just barely.
However, tonight was just another night where I find myself cursing the computer and slamming my hands against the keyboard.
I played 36 tournies tonight with an ROI of 3.5%. I finished the night with:
1st--1
2nd--6
3rd--9
4th--6
I went through my hand histories and found that in the 21 tournies I was knocked out in 2nd-4th, I had the better hand all in preflop 19 times. In 12 of those, I had my opponent dominated (AAvs.Q4, KKvs85, A6vsA3, AKvsAJ, etc.). Yeah yeah, we all have bad beats.
Almost all of these plays are by the large stack making a move on my from the SB when I'm the BB. I re-raise all in, and they are already priced in and have to call with their junk...and then the BB assuming I'm making a move on them when I have shown nothing but good hands. They call with 85o when they only have me covered by a couple of hundred.

I just don't have the mental ability to overcome night after night of bad beats. I keep thinking that if I go in with the better hand, it will all average out, but I can't wait for it.

Now, bankroll wise, I can handle the swings. I'm not playing at a point where the money is scaring me. It's simply that I get so pissed when they suck out on me...and when I have these days, I just can't stand going all in again, knowing I'm going to have the better hand...and it means nothing.

So, I give up...back to NL50...back to the grind. Was fun while it lasted...well, sometimes.

P.S. yes, I'm a baby...yes, I need to learn about variance...and yes, I'll have to get use to it if I plan to play poker.

[wiggs73]

i stopped reading when i saw that you are frustrated because you barely finished a winner tonight. sit and goes are definitely not for you.

[Costanza]

I guess I'm not sure what the point of this post was. For some reason, I felt compelled to reply.

About all I can conclude from your post was that you were playing SnG's. What you described happens. In fact, not uncommonly.

I think the "long run" in SnG's is much longer than the "long run" in limit or no-limit ring games. You just made a post complaining about a modest winning streak over 36 SnG's. That is roughly the equivalent of complaining about a modest winning streak over 1000 hands of NL ring.

If you can't deal with that, good luck with the grind of NL 50.

Dont you think taking a bad beat in a NL game will hurt you more than a bad beat in a sng? You lose 11 or 22, depending on which level you are playing. I think taking a bad beat on a sng is much, much easier to swallow than taking it in a cash game. stay positive...

[splashpot]

[ QUOTE ]
poker is definitely not for you.

[/ QUOTE ]
The swings will be MUCH worse at 50nl. If you can't handle the swings here, good luck with them in the nl games.

[bigt439]

We should have automated replies for threads like this.

- variance is a bitch get used to it
- read irie's posts
- keep your head up
- etc.

[pergesu]

You're fagatorious.

Do you see why?

[Hendricks433]

He did say he finished 2000 sngs. He used last night as an example of a bad night he has a lot. Anyway do what makes you happy.

[splashpot]

[ QUOTE ]
He did say he finished 2000 sngs. He used last night as an example of a bad night he has a lot. Anyway do what makes you happy.

[/ QUOTE ]
If he thinks that ending the night as a slight winner is an example of a bad night, he's going to have some rough, rough nights at 50nl.

[Costanza]

Completely off topic hijack, but good to see you back, pergesu. You've helped me plug what I'm now are pretty sure were leaks. I hope this means you're also experiencing a better side of varience than before.

[pergesu]

Me and variance is niggas

[jmillerdls]

Well, and this was also part of my point. If I can't handle the swinsgs on a day that I still made a profit...then I clearly have problems with the swings in SNGs.
I don't know...for whatever reason, it just isn't the same. Before trying my hand at SNGs, I played over 30k hands of NL25, and over 10k hands of NL50. I played 8-10 tables. That typically comes out to about 300-450 hands an hour. I rarely ever felt the swings.
In an SNG, you win a hand early and double up...you don't have anything to show for it if you take a terrible beat 10 minutes later when it really matters and you bust out 4th, or when this happens all night and you keep getting 3rd and 2nd and spinning your wheels.
In ring games, when I have 8 tables up and going...I'm busting on some tables but doubling up on others...grinding up and down on some as well...There is immediate reward when I double up...
In an SNG, I can double up early...grind down some, double up again, and still finish 4th place for net loss of $22. In cash games its different, unless of course you are getting some insane action on one paticular table.
Clearly, puting this in the SNG forum is asking for an ass-kicking...but, I do deserve it..I am a baby.

[splashpot]

Well, if you say so, good luck then. But the swings ARE worse at nl cash. No arguing that point.

[jmillerdls]

Yeah, I have heard that SNG's are the least, then NL, then Limit. I just have yet to experience it I guess, or when a 2k hand downswing only takes 4 hours, I can live with that. Well, I assume, I haven't experienced anything like that.
Looking at my old graphs I had a 1k hand downswing that was 300bbs (ouch).
Who knows...it all sucks.
You would think someone that plays as much as me could handle this...

[FlyWf]

"After tonight, I have just under 2000 SNG's between the 10's and the 20's. Between the 2 I have a 13% ROI. I am a winning player, although as you can tell, just barely."

13% is not "just barely".

"and then the BB assuming I'm making a move on them when I have shown nothing but good hands."

1. So you want Q4 to fold when you have aces? My least favorite idiot move in the $22s is the shortstack in the blinds with 1.5 BBs who folds when I've got queens.
2. Winning SNG play involves getting involved with a wide range of hands. 13% ROI player |= person who only shows down good hands. Not that there is any chance the other players remember what happened more than a hand or two ago.


But most importantly, you [censored] made money. I've finished 1st _twice_ in the past 72 SNGs I've played. You think that's 3.5% ROI?

[Hendricks433]

Yeah I totally agree. Im just trying to help the brother out alittle.

[pergesu]

Dude I gotta call BS on your 2k games played. Seriously, there's no way that anyone who has played that many games so soundly (13% is solid despite what many players here claim their e-penises to be) would have any issue with showing a PROFIT over a MEANINGLESS number of tourneys. Also, anyone who is unable to cope with the "beat" of, again, showing a profit over a meaningless number of tourneys is, in my mind, incapable of possessing the mindset required to beat this crazy game over 2000 games.

Maybe there's some other [censored] going on in your life that's thrown you off your game, but on balance no winning player would quit over a winning day. Unless you've been riding the sickest heater known to man, which from your impressive, but not so impressive so as not to believe it, ROI is clearly not the case.

Maybe he's just tired.

[SammyKid11]

I agree with the above that you're maybe not as winning a player as you think if you're willing to QUIT over a winning day. I've only had 2 winning days out of the last 10. After being up about 10k over the last two months of SnG's, I have lost over a grand in the last week and a half. It sucks ass, I posted something whining about it too (which was stupid on my part cause no one wants to hear it)...but if you're willing to QUIT over it...then I don't think you have 2k SnG's with a 13% ROI.

Anyway...good luck with whatever form of higher-variance poker you decide to try.

[runner4life7]

you should not play poker, ever again, in any form, other than blind mans bluff.

[splashpot]

[ QUOTE ]
you should not play poker, ever again, in any form, other than blind mans bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]
Lol. I played that with my friends. It's surprisingly difficult. And involves a surprising amount of thinking and strategy.

[runner4life7]

you know what else is fun, is to play with 2 jokers in the deck. I played my roommate heads up for $5 doing that and beat him 4 out of 5 games /images/graemlins/smile.gif. When that river is a joker and everyone "catches" it could get nuts like 5 handed.

[pergesu]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you should not play poker, ever again, in any form, other than blind mans bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]
Lol. I played that with my friends. It's surprisingly difficult. And involves a surprising amount of thinking and strategy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not when you guys have killed a couple 6 packs of heieneken and a quarter.. holla

[ QUOTE ]
........yes, I'll have to get use to it if I plan to play poker....

[/ QUOTE ]

Good luck whatever you decide to do...

You still will have varience in cash games....

Cheers

Ben

[brimstone1]

If you truly believe that you are a long-term winner at this game as you say you are, unless you've hit some sort of bankroll problem, you should keep on playing.

If having dominated your opponents in the majority of the hands you busted out with doesn't put a smile on your face after ~2000 games, I don't know what else to say other than:

You might also want to listen to the people who said this game just might not be for you, just a thought.

Good luck.

[stupidsucker]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, so like every Saturday the last couple of months (and virtually everyday for that matter), I spent my time playing $20 SNG's. And after tonight, I feel like I have got to quit...go back to cash games.
I can't handle the beats...
After tonight, I have just under 2000 SNG's between the 10's and the 20's. Between the 2 I have a 13% ROI. I am a winning player, although as you can tell, just barely.
However, tonight was just another night where I find myself cursing the computer and slamming my hands against the keyboard.
I played 36 tournies tonight with an ROI of 3.5%. I finished the night with:
1st--1
2nd--6
3rd--9
4th--6
I went through my hand histories and found that in the 21 tournies I was knocked out in 2nd-4th, I had the better hand all in preflop 19 times. In 12 of those, I had my opponent dominated (AAvs.Q4, KKvs85, A6vsA3, AKvsAJ, etc.). Yeah yeah, we all have bad beats.
Almost all of these plays are by the large stack making a move on my from the SB when I'm the BB. I re-raise all in, and they are already priced in and have to call with their junk...and then the BB assuming I'm making a move on them when I have shown nothing but good hands. They call with 85o when they only have me covered by a couple of hundred.

I just don't have the mental ability to overcome night after night of bad beats. I keep thinking that if I go in with the better hand, it will all average out, but I can't wait for it.

Now, bankroll wise, I can handle the swings. I'm not playing at a point where the money is scaring me. It's simply that I get so pissed when they suck out on me...and when I have these days, I just can't stand going all in again, knowing I'm going to have the better hand...and it means nothing.

So, I give up...back to NL50...back to the grind. Was fun while it lasted...well, sometimes.

P.S. yes, I'm a baby...yes, I need to learn about variance...and yes, I'll have to get use to it if I plan to play poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Going through a period like this is detrimental to a long lasting poker career. I call it poker puberty.

Just like real puberty,,, all the little boys that have a little peach fuzz think they are a man...

Dont worry about all of the posters that think you are a moron for being upset about bad beats or streaks. I can think off the top of my head two very respected posters that have posted very similar threads to your own.

Luck extends beyond your own sample size and beyond poker for that matter. You sir have had some bad bad luck. Poker emulates life. Some people are born into wealth, and some people are born in. Some people are born healthy, some people are born addicted to crack. Just like life... No one thinks anyone understands their own situation, and everyone thinks they understand everyones elses situation so well. (still with me?)

In Short...
Life isnt fair, and neither is poker

[ QUOTE ]
In the long run everyone gets the same cards.

[/ QUOTE ] -poker cliche

This isnt true in the least. If you dont believe me compare PT databases. Sure there will be similarities, but...

You dont get the same cards no matter how many you play.
You dont get them in the same order
You dont face teh same opponents
the same flops
the ihsdfkjhgby
ekjbkjb
jhgknktn
you see what I mean
ljhkdjfhbk
dkjfhklh diuk

The main bug up everyones ass is. They were programmed that bad beat posts are puke. They are for the most part.

You are saying to yourself... "This cant be normal" and most people post wanting to fullfill that gap somehow.

Guess what... Its normal /images/graemlins/frown.gif

Are you suffering more then others... could be, maybe, and maybe its just happening at the wrong times for you.

OK I think I could ramble forever. Sorry to step on toes, but there if there is one thing worse then a bad beat post, it is a post complaining about a bad beat post.

For those that hate bad beat posts and want to see them disapear,... Dont read them, dont respond... Think of it like intelligent strategy... By responding all you do is bump it and fuel the fire.
<font color="white"> "We Didnt start the fire... No we didnt light it, but we're trying to fight it..." </font>

[11t]

I played 50nl almost exclusively and I think the big difference between NL cash games and SNG's are that the swings in NL cash seem more controlable than in SNG's. I mean in SNG's you are so often just throwing your chips intot he middle and racing that it feels almost like some sort of slot machine.

Also I dunno, after like 35k hands of 50nl my biggest downswing (and this is probably just huge blind luck) is 5x the buyin or $250. That is compared to me taking a standrard 20x buyin downswing at the 22's. which is $440.

Perhaps at higher limits the swings get rougher but at the lower limits with donks giving their money away as huge dogs the swings seem to be less if you play good post flop poker.

[ QUOTE ]
In the long run everyone gets the same cards.
-poker cliche

This isnt true in the least.

[/ QUOTE ]

Duplicate poker is the wave of the future. Everyone table would play the same deals and players would be ranked by how they do compared to the other players at other tables who hold the same cards.

[DrPhysic]

[ QUOTE ]
In Short...
Life isnt fair, and neither is poker

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
You are saying to yourself... "This cant be normal" and most people post wanting to fullfill that gap somehow.

Guess what... Its normal

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with SS, however:

You may have reached a point where you are sufficiently frustrated that a change is in order. After replacing 2 or 3 keyboards and 3 mice, your level of frustration with the beats may be keeping you from playing as well as you can.

So what's wrong with changing to another form that you are more comfortable with for a while? Play cash games. Play 7 card stud. If you really are a winner it will come out in the end. But don't play when you are putting yourself on tilt. That is self defeating.

Doc

[roundest]

[ QUOTE ]
If you truly believe that you are a long-term winner at this game as you say you are, unless you've hit some sort of bankroll problem, you should keep on playing.

If having dominated your opponents in the majority of the hands you busted out with doesn't put a smile on your face after ~2000 games, I don't know what else to say other than:

You might also want to listen to the people who said this game just might not be for you, just a thought.

Good luck.

[/ QUOTE ]

It really should put a smile on your face, too. You have to learn to evaluate the quality of your decisions without dwelling on the results of those decisions. It can be difficult to do sometimes when the beats come in bunches, but it is awfully damned important if you want to be succesful. Think about the long run. Think about all the times that someone called your top set with middle pair-no kicker and doubled you up. These people who shove all their chips in as a dog over and over are what makes poker so profitable.

You already know all of this.

13% ROI playing half 11s and half 22s is $2.15/sng btw. 8-table these and play 50-100 5 days a week. I know some people who would call that a living.

[1C5]

What are you talking about? The guy has a fk'n 13% ROI and is mad at making money at only a 3.5% ROI pace last night.

He knows nothing about unlucky.

He plays the 22s as do I. I have lost over $500 in one night and have been at 0% ROI for close to 1000 games.

Other posters have had downswings of 10s of thousands of dollars.

Cry me a river. Ohh KK lost and I "only" had a 3.5 ROI.

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="red">Life is</font> definitely not for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yugoslav

[jmillerdls]

To be honest, I'm suprised this thread is still alive.
Look, I have had worst days than this..and this is my point. If I am getting this pissed over a day where I'm still making a profit, then its clear I can't handle this form of poker...at least not exclusively like I have been playing it lately.
Because of this, I think its clear that it isn't about the money won or lost...its about being in lvl 6, and finally picking up a hand and pushing, only to be called by someone with a terrible hand, and they suck out on me, leaving me in 3rd, or 4th. If this happens to knock me out of 1 in 4 tournies...then big deal, that's how things happen, favroite hands don't win everytime. But when it happens in 9 out of 10 tournies...I can't handle that.
I'm a whiner..admittedly...but at least I know it, and will adjust accordingly.

By the way, at NL50, I don't think I've had a night where my AA all in was called by Q4o, and my KK push was called by 85o or equivelants. These situations will always occur in SNG's given the structure..and I can't handle a night full of them.

[runner4life7]

I hate it when my AA gets called by Q4o. I was going to leave this thread alone, but this is just terrible terrible logic. Do you win every hand you play in NL50?

[1C5]

Well just wait till you hit a bad night at the NL tables if you can't candle the swings in SnGs....

[EnderFFX]

If you are a winner at SnG and a winner at 50 NL then I suggest switching back and forth when one gets on your nerves. However, while you are looking through your hands to prove luck is against you, look through your hands for mistakes you made and things you could have done better.

Good luck.

[jmillerdls]

Obviously I don't care about them calling with it, I care about taking 9 bad beats out of 10 when I am the favorite. Of course I don't win every hand in NL50..but rather than losing all my money when I go 3 and 1 in all in situations in a tournament, I'm up 2 buyins when this happens at NL50.

[sahala]

great post.