"Ugh" he says

NL 200$ 6-max

CO limps
Button (200$) minraises to 4
Hero (covers table) raises it to 14 on the small blind (perhaps 16-18 would have been preferable) with AcAd
Limper calls, button calls

Pot is ~40
Flop: 9c 6d 5c
Hero leads for 30
CO folds
Button says "Ugh" in chat, thinks for most of his time, and calls.

Pot ~100
Turn: 3s
Hero leads for 40, villain pushes fairly quickly (~120 for hero to call), Hero vomits and...?

Stats on villain: 28% VPIP, 6.7% PF raise, 3.29 aggression factor after 200 hands.

Also, should hero have checked this turn?

[ahnuld]

yes. Fold.

[Big_Jim]

I find that the vast majority of the time, players have big hands when they talk in chat. Especially when he does the blatant "weak means strong" tell.

As for the turn... man, check/folding seems SO weak....

I really don't like your bet, unless you know villian to be very passive. If he's thinking, he may recognize it for what it is and blow you off your hand with a lot of things.

If you want to bet, bet stronger, say $75, this should make it harder for him to run a bluff on you, and will also nicely price out draws. If he[pushes, stacks are still deep enough that you can get away without too much of a problem (< 3:1 odds).

If he flat calls again, you can usually put him on a draw, and check/call a blank river.

[Big_Jim]

You recommend check/fold?

I agree that the chat tell is pretty strong... I would definately consider it.

[beset7]

I have my chat turned off usually. Mistake?

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
I have my chat turned off usually. Mistake?

[/ QUOTE ]
yes.

a hand a couple weeks ago...
sb raises i call in BB.
flop,he bets i call
turn,he bets, i type in a raise amt, but just before i click raise i see he has typed "fold" into chat box.
woah.
i fold.

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
IAs for the turn... man, check/folding seems SO weak....


[/ QUOTE ]
i dont understand why ppl say this, why are u embarrassed?
why is it "weak"?
why wouldnt u say never beiong able to fold AA is "weak"?

[Big_Jim]

It's pretty rare, but I've found it to be pretty reliable.

I also think that chat helps give you impressions of possible tilt/psyche issues that you might consider during a hand.

Of course, a smart player would probably know to give "false tells," but that's a whole different level.

I frequently type stuff like "OMFG" "MOTHER [censored]" after a bad outdraw, to give people the idea that I might be on tilt. Not really sure how much it affects the game...

[Big_Jim]

If hero felt unsure about the situation, I think that the betting line would have been better.

I didn't say he shouldn't check/fold it, as I feel that the tell is pretty reliable.

From my earlier post:
[ QUOTE ]
If you want to bet, bet stronger

[/ QUOTE ]

And no, I was not advocating a check/raise all in.

Although, you are correct, and I never really state a positon in my earlier post.

You don't think KK and QQ etc are possible for him here? AA for split is another possibility, albeit very unlikely. Getting 2:1ish on my money I don't need to be ahead here very often.

When I check turn, with what intention? Do I call a bet? How big? Do I C/R?

Betting 75 there (over half my stack in pot) and folding to a push on that board, with a set being only thing that beats me, kinda sucks. Given that he called on the flop after his deliberating act, I felt he was certainly strong, but a weaker overpair is still pretty strong on that board. Keep in mind his aggression factor of over 3, though, so I am not sure what all he is capable of.

By betting 40$ bet on the turn, I wanted to keep weaker overpairs around, without giving a free card. The turn card obviously changed nothing. When he pushed, I was disgusted, however my bet was somewhat designed to give me action. Given his previous action, though, and his obvious feigned weakness having turned to "I want all my chips in the pot right now", weaker overpairs seemed much less likely. His aggression factor of 3+ made me think long and hard.


Also, pretend for a second that I had chat off for this hand, and didn't notice his timing. Turn line remain the same? Would you call this push? Would you call if he pushed over your 75 bet with half your stack in the pot?

[Big_Jim]

To more directly answer your actual questions...

I guess it's just real hard for me to fold aces in a hand where I'm never raised, based on a tell that I've noticed in other people on an unknown player.

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
I have my chat turned off usually. Mistake?

[/ QUOTE ]

i do too, if anything can tilt me, it's that.

not to mention my chat is pretty much taken away on every site... (im normally a very nice guy! something about online poker...)

Would help if all you guys replying also answered the questions real quick /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[BobboFitos]

Tough / common spot.

Your pfrr isnt bad, I personally make it more, but this isnt too bad.

On the turn, I probably check/push. If checked around I vb riv or check/call depending on what falls.

[Woolygimp]

I think him taking up his time to call is just as important as the Ugh!
What hands would he need to think about for 30 seconds to call you with and then an Ugh on top of that!!!

This is definately weak means strong! If you don't understand go buy Caro's Book of Tell's immediately (very good book and worth the money).

On top of that you don't have just one very strong internet tell, you have two.
Internet tells are very rare but thank your opponent for providing these strong tells (actually don't, we don't want the fish to wisen up) and make use of it until proven otherwise...

You're opponent at the very least has a set & most likely a straight. I expect to see 78s here often enough. Check/Fold turn as you were crushed on the flop.

Edit: The same donks that would provide you with these tells LOVE to min-raise with SC's. You'd have to be an idiot to want to get your money in here.

AJ I hope you called so you can give us the results of the hand... (even though that means you probaly lost a good portion of your stack).

[scdavis0]

I would just like to say that in my experience chat during a hand usually represents tremendous strength.

Just the other day I raised it with AT, flop comes T93 with a heart draw. He check-calls me. Turn is a non heart 9. He checks, I bet, he types into chat "damn you really got a nine?". He then calls.

River is a blank and we check it down and he shows T9.

[Woolygimp]

[ QUOTE ]
I would just like to say that in my experience chat during a hand usually represents tremendous strength.

Just the other day I raised it with AT, flop comes T93 with a heart draw. He check-calls me. Turn is a non heart 9. He checks, I bet, he types into chat "damn you really got a nine?". He then calls.

River is a blank and we check it down and he shows T9.

[/ QUOTE ]

Like I said, I'd put money that the villain flopped the nut straight.

[ QUOTE ]


Like I said, I'd put money that the villain flopped the nut straight.

[/ QUOTE ]

How much? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

I agree, his act was a sign of HUGE strength. A tell like this comes around very very rarely. I thought long and hard, and was coming close to timing out, when my friend chimed in: "Dude, you got Aces, are you kidding me?" Sigh. Peer pressure perhaps? Perhaps I fell in love with my rockets. I think his 3+ aggression factor was deceptive, too.

If these rockets were KK instead, I would have had absolutely no troubles muckin' em here. But I called like a donkey, somehow talking myself into believing that KK was somehow possible for him here (If it was, it was certainly far smaller a chance than 1/3). Before I did, I called his hole cards out in chat, and had the pleasure of getting them right. At least I got to see if my read was right for that price, lol. Maybe one day I'll be good enough to actually go on a read, FFS. Villain had 99, for flopped top set. Duh.

I think the way I played the hand gave me a good chance of getting away, and making money if ahead, so I'm not sure I really mind my line too much. I really doubt villain would ever be capable of pushing on a bluff on the turn there, and a bluff would be almost impossible given his act. Making the fold would have been nice, as I'll get a royal flush before I get a tell like that again. At least I can read people's hands when they are playing them face up, eh?

[scdavis0]

I wouldn't consider folding AA here a big laydown.

You absolutely must get away from that hand on this board and that action.

[yvesaint]

i really dont like the turn bet if you plan on folding ....its 120 for you to call into a 300 pot, but your turn bet is sort of inviting someone to come over top.

i also dont like the turn bet because he probably also calls w/any draw.

[Woolygimp]

Tells are useless if you don't make money off of them. Don't be afraid to use them when they appear, and most people aren't going to "trick" you with tells at MSNL. The reason why is you play with different people every day so rarely is someone going to say, hmm i'm going to trick my opponent with a mis-tell.

I strongly recommend Caro's Book of Tells. It's a great book , especially for live, and will reassure alot of what most good players have "hunches" about.
Next time trust your reads.

As for those with your chat off, what are you guys thinking?
It's similiar to playing Live blindfolded...

I wasn't worried about him "tricking" me. I was pretty certain he was very strong. As for what very strong meant for a 3+ aggression factor player? I don't know, but I talked myself into thinking KK was a possibility. The 40 bet WAS designed to induce action, and that was another thing that swayed me toward calling.

yve, would you bet 75 and fold to a push?

[scdavis0]

[ QUOTE ]
yve, would you bet 75 and fold to a push?

[/ QUOTE ]

that's what i would do

I blame my friend for pressuring me into making this donktastic call without knowing all the details /images/graemlins/tongue.gif He sounded like he was going to slap me if I folded /images/graemlins/frown.gif Then again, he has never been a very big proponent of folding overpairs. No more of him ruining my concentration, though! Except for that smell coming from the closet..

elbow drop the rest of your stack on the table "dude you got AA"