Folding the river, (censorsed)

Live 15-30 game

I havent played here in a while, but last night my friend said to me "where have you been playing live?" and it sparked memories of dragging non-virtual pots and shuffling non-virtual chips. Not to mention I was in the area.


I'm MP with A /images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif10 /images/graemlins/club.gif8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

UTG limps UTG+1 limps, fold, I limp, fold, fold, button calls, both blinds see the flop with us.

Flop

Q /images/graemlins/club.gif10 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

SB bets, BB calls, UTG calls, I raise, Button calls, both blinds and UTG call

Turn

3 /images/graemlins/club.gif

check, check, check, I bet, everyone calls

River

9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

everyone checks (including me) and button bets saying "give it to paulie"

folds around to me and I look at him and he says "straight"

people in this game to this A LOT. and they dont lie, either. it's a real friendly game and they almost dont like their buddies calling their bets when they have the nuts.

I figure he's telling the truth (and what does he cold call 2 SB's with here anyways when I have top two and the nut flush draw)

I fold. He doesn't show.



Anybody like the way I played this hand or would you try to raise the turn? Obviously "Paulie" might not cold call 2 BB's with a wrap, but who knows?


Thoughts appreciated.





Tex

next time toss your chips in before he tells you his hand.

[ QUOTE ]
next time toss your chips in before he tells you his hand.

[/ QUOTE ]


What???

Sorry. I think the hand was played fine with the exception of the river fold. And my suggestion is that you call quickly, before the opponent gets a chance to tell you his hand, so that you won't be violating some sort of weird social contract.

Put villain on a hand here.

He cold calls 2 Sb's on the flop, with no low draw possible. I have top two, which makes a set unlikely, I have the nut flush draw which makes another flush draw unlikely, so doesn't he have to be drawing at a straight, like, always?

Tell me some hand he could bet this river with that I can beat.



Thanks,




Tex

In that case, why the long-winded crap at the end of the hand? Why not just say "I folded." The subtext of what you wrote, which I'll quote here for convenience, is that you held a shred of doubt:

"everyone checks (including me) and button bets saying "give it to paulie"

folds around to me and I look at him and he says "straight"

people in this game to this A LOT. and they dont lie, either. it's a real friendly game and they almost dont like their buddies calling their bets when they have the nuts.

I figure he's telling the truth (and what does he cold call 2 SB's with here anyways when I have top two and the nut flush draw)

I fold. He doesn't show."


This sounds like a pretty good angle-shoot opportunity, I thought that's what you were getting at. I can think of many hands that a typical live-game jackass will call with to see this river. A2 with any other 2, for example. Flush draw, for example. Chances are slim that you held the winning hand, but then again the pot was laying you huge odds on a call there.

Finally, why post this F'ing hand if your question isn't about the river play? What else about this hand is anything other than utterly mundane. The fking title of this thread is "Folding the river. (censored])"

Preflop: Meh. You really only have one combo working for you here. (Ad Qd) Not really a big fan of this, especially in LO8. I would call this most of the time in a PLO8, but not LO8.

Flop: Standard value raise. You might have the best hand right now, and have draws to an even better hand.

Turn: Standard. You are still in good shape.

River: Insta-call. You are getting tremendous odds here, how can you consider folding?

[ QUOTE ]
In that case, why the long-winded crap at the end of the hand? Why not just say "I folded." The subtext of what you wrote, which I'll quote here for convenience, is that you held a shred of doubt:

"everyone checks (including me) and button bets saying "give it to paulie"

folds around to me and I look at him and he says "straight"

people in this game to this A LOT. and they dont lie, either. it's a real friendly game and they almost dont like their buddies calling their bets when they have the nuts.

I figure he's telling the truth (and what does he cold call 2 SB's with here anyways when I have top two and the nut flush draw)

I fold. He doesn't show."


This sounds like a pretty good angle-shoot opportunity, I thought that's what you were getting at. I can think of many hands that a typical live-game jackass will call with to see this river. A2 with any other 2, for example. Flush draw, for example. Chances are slim that you held the winning hand, but then again the pot was laying you huge odds on a call there.

Finally, why post this F'ing hand if your question isn't about the river play? What else about this hand is anything other than utterly mundane. The fking title of this thread is "Folding the river. (censored])"

[/ QUOTE ]



Lol.


You're stupid.

[ QUOTE ]
River: Insta-call. You are getting tremendous odds here, how can you consider folding?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm getting about 12-1 to call.

I think my hand is good here like, 1 in 20.

[Buzz]

Tex - I think the guy had a straight, just as he said he did.

It's entirely logical for Button to have made a straight on the river. You have four opponents who passively stay to see the river. They're all drawing for something. After this flop you should expect at least one of them to be drawing for a straight, maybe also with non-nut diamonds or also with two pairs or a set.

Button is the one who bets the river, so that Button is probably the one who has made his draw (made a straight).

However, after everyone checks, Button should probably make a positional bet in an attempt to steal the pot. There's enough of a chance for the positional steal by Button to work for it to be an entirely logical play for Button to make with a missed draw.

Therefore, it's also entirely logical for Button to be making a positional steal attempt (bluff) here.

Thus you are torn as to whether to call Button's bet or not.

And then Button provides the free information.

In most games this free information would be a classic tell indicating a missed draw. (It's also a possible reverse tell, indicating a made draw).

With or without the additional information, the size of the pot (14 big bets) shifts the balance to the side of calling. You shouldn't really expect your two pair to win but you should figure Button would make a positional steal attempt (bluff) often enough so that you should call the bet.

So what to do?

You should want to call, except that if you do call after Button's pronouncement, you're telling everybody that you don't trust Button. And that would change the dynamics of the game.

It's a tough one.

On balance, I like the way you handled the situation.

Buzz

[jthegreat]

He's exactly right. You raised the flop and bet the turn. You were as aggressive as possible on those streets. The only questionable play in the hand is whether to call or not on the river. He's just as likely to have a missed flush draw as he is a straight. I think it's a bad fold unless you are *very* sure he wouldn't lie.

[Wolffink]

He made the straight. The extra bit of information seals it.

"Give it to Paulie" could be a bluff. When he adds: "Straight." and its the type of game you describe this would be over the top. "Give it to Paulie" could be a bluff. But "straight" sounds legit to me since he's putting himself on the limb. If you call and he's lying, he looks foolish. But if he's telling the truth and you call, he gains face.

But call anyway. Make a joke about it that you gotta see it or that you saw him bluff once. Or if it's a really friendly game, do a Mike Caro thing and raise him and put it down to advertising.

Pot odds.

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm getting about 12-1 to call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tex - Well... 14 to 1, but the difference between 12 to 1 and 14 to 1 is not a big deal.

[ QUOTE ]
I think my hand is good here like, 1 in 20.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can only beat a <font color="red">BLUFF</font>!

But this is one of those situations where Button should often bluff if he missed his draw.

What I'm saying is a bluff here would be a good play by Button if he read you for top two pair or a set, realized that you had missed improving on the river, and thought you'd fold to a bet.

And what I'm saying is that a bluff here by a good player, or even a poor but aggressive player is very common in this sort of situation.

People don't bluff as often as in Texas hold 'em but they still do sometimes bluff. Omaha-8 is still poker!

Buzz

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
He made the straight. The extra bit of information seals it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wolf - I agree.

[ QUOTE ]
.... since he's putting himself on the limb

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. In this type of game Button looses the respect of his comrades if he gets caught lying. The risk is too much greater than the possible reward of several hundred dollars.

[ QUOTE ]
But call anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm torn. I want to call here too. But after Button does what everybody in the game thinks is a gentlemanly thing, calling is awkward.

When I first read Tex's post, I tried to think of something to say to soften the awkwardness of a call, but I couldn't think of anything appropriate.

However, the pot odds certainly do merit a call. In a normal casino game this is a "must call" situation or they'll pick you blind.

Buzz

It's funny that you say that, because, I found myself bluffing at a few pots yesterday on the river. Hard to do in this game, and you really need position to do it. I suppose that if there was one bet I needed to call here, it was a bet on the river by the button. I still think it's very neutral EV in the long run when a fairly passive player cold calls and then finally springs to life. It's funny, because, online, I call all day and twice on sunday in that spot.

[benwood]

I think FatBallz is right.Call fast before the BS starts.

[chaos]

Yes and high-only boards usually provide the best bluffing opportunities in Omaha/8.