AQo out of position [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

private joker

12-10-2005, 10:29 PM

Villain is unknown. Flop and turn could go in a couple different directions I think.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG raises, 2 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, 3 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (8.40 SB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.70 BB) A/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG raises, MP3 folds, Hero calls.

River: (9.70 BB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11.70 BB

Maulik

12-10-2005, 10:34 PM

I think the pf is a fold. you aren't suited.

the flop definately a fold you don't have any re-draws and are drawing to an A or Q.

As played 3-bet the flop and lead the river? If capped on the turn, c/call river.

Harv72b

12-10-2005, 10:34 PM

This is exactly the kind of situation where I'd try a c/r on the flop. Well, not exactly since it'd be better if MP3 had folded, but good enough.

Given your flop line, I like your turn/river line. Donk the turn to make sure it doesn't check through when he's got JJ or something, and just call the raise because you don't know if he's holding a set or AK. If you felt confident enough to 3-bet here, then c/r would probably be better (because I'd imagine you'd have to read UTG as pretty bad aggressive to 3-bet, in which case you can count on him to bet the turn regardless).

Harv72b

12-10-2005, 10:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think the pf is a fold. you aren't suited.

[/ QUOTE ]

Easy, easy call from the BB vs. an unknown raiser.

private joker

12-10-2005, 10:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This is exactly the kind of situation where I'd try a c/r on the flop. .

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you explain the beneifits of this?

Maulik

12-10-2005, 10:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think the pf is a fold. you aren't suited.

[/ QUOTE ]

Easy, easy call from the BB vs. an unknown raiser.

[/ QUOTE ]

some old 2+2 mantra I beleive AQo v. unknown raiser in limit is a muck. I beleive we call if we know an unknown to be particularly bad or raising a wide range of hands.

private joker

12-10-2005, 10:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]

some old 2+2 mantra I beleive AQo v. unknown raiser in limit is a muck.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even getting 7.4:1? I'd fold AJo here, but AQ?

istewart

12-10-2005, 11:05 PM

I wouldn't fold AJ here. AQ seems like a pretty standard call...

Nick C

12-11-2005, 12:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is exactly the kind of situation where I'd try a c/r on the flop. .

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you explain the beneifits of this?

[/ QUOTE ]

I can see that a flop checkraise sets up a potential steal on the turn. Also, it's possible we have the best hand.

Still, it's not a default play for me.

Well, let's see where we tend to stand vs. the PFR. (I'm going to have to invent a range here.)

AA = 3
KK = 6
QQ = 3
JJ = 6
TT = 6
99 = 3
88 = 6
AK = 12

AQ = 9

AJ = 12
AT = 12
KQ = 12

Well, all right, we'll be ahead of the PFR a decent amount of the time, and we'll have some steal potential (vs. AK/AQ) on some occasions when we're not ahead.

There is also the third guy to worry about, but I guess in theory he'd be raising the flop with a vulnerable pair.

Nick C

12-11-2005, 12:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

some old 2+2 mantra I beleive AQo v. unknown raiser in limit is a muck.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even getting 7.4:1? I'd fold AJo here, but AQ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Since we're in the BB, I'd probably call with both hands.

I wouldn't really like any of my options with AJ (and I don't know what's best with that hand), but I'm thinking calling one more with AQ should be easy enough.

Nick C

12-11-2005, 12:31 AM

I think the flop call is all right. I'm not crazy about your "outs," but the thing is, you could have the best hand. You'll get bluffed out on the turn sometimes when you do have the best hand, though, and maybe that's why Harv wants to checkraise.

I tend to check the turn, mainly because a bet practically announces my hand. If I did check, I think I'd checkraise if MP3 called. If MP3 folded, I'd consider just calling, with the plan of donking the river.

Edit: If UTG checked and MP3 bet, I'd probably checkraise without thinking about it much, but I'm wondering if just calling, with the plan of leading the river if UTG stays in, would be better. If we call and UTG gets out, then a river checkraise might be something to consider. But I'm not very good at figuring out when river checkraises are a good idea.

It doesn't seem like hand protection should be a big issue on the turn versus UTG, so I won't be crying too hard if the turn gets checked through.

Jake (The Snake)

12-11-2005, 01:07 AM

I agree completely on your analysis of the turn. I'm not scared of it getting checked through because the pot isn't terribly large and if my opponents are behind, they won't have many outs to catch up. There are no straight draws and the flop was rainbow which makes it more likely MP3 doesn't have the flush draw.

Of course it would suck to not get any value on the turn, but I think betting out is often going to get us raised against hands we are losing to (and also knocking out MP3 who is likely crushed) and have UTG often fold pocket pairs since we are basically announcing our hand.

I think there are very few hands UTG does not bet here, and any hands he checks he almost certainly would've folded to our bet anyway.

Harv72b

12-11-2005, 01:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Can you explain the beneifits of this?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nick C broke down the nuts & bolts analysis of it beautifully, which is fortunate because we all know I ignore the detailed math part of it & just gut it out. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Mainly just summing up what Nick said, I c/r this flop because:

1) There's a fair possibility that I have the best hand.
2) That's exactly what I'd do if I was holding a pocket pair or had paired the flop. Especially if I had an ace kicker to go with my pair (i.e., A9s).

It's really all about representin'. I'm not too worried about the coldcaller because, again as Nick said, he would've raised himself if he had something he really liked, and in your typical Party game it's very likely that he's just hanging around with some underpair or a weak/medium ace. Plus, check/raising over the top of a bet and a call represents a pretty damn big hand, enough so that Mr. PFR might just toss his own AQ/AK immediately.

Understand that this is not my standard play, but I do use it fairly often in situations like this.

private joker

12-11-2005, 01:26 AM

Thanks a lot Harv, Nick, Jake, etc. For anyone who doesn't believe 2+2 strategy discussions can yield instant profits, here's a hand I *just* played against a 13/9/2 TAG specifically due to advice in this thread.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
5 folds, MP3 raises, 2 folds, SB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, MP3 bets, SB folds, Hero raises, MP3 calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, MP3 folds.

Final Pot: 6 BB

Harv72b

12-11-2005, 01:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I beleive we call if we know an unknown to be particularly bad or raising a wide range of hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

We 3-bet if that's the case, although you could make a case for just calling when out of position like in this hand.

Understand that AQo shapes up fairly well against even a "normal" player's UTG raising range, in a game like 5/10. Most players are raising aces AJs+ and pocket pairs 99-AA; we're tied with his AQ hands, crushed by his AK/AA hands, and a pretty significant dog with lousy implied odds vs. KK and QQ. But we're ahead of AJs, and a coinflip against JJ-99. When you factor in the pot odds you're getting, that makes AQo a pretty easy call here, as long as you're not planning to overplay a TPTK hand postflop.

Now, when you consider that more than a few players are also raising with AJo, ATs, KQs, 88, and even KJs from UTG...

Harv72b

12-11-2005, 01:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks a lot Harv, Nick, Jake, etc. For anyone who doesn't believe 2+2 strategy discussions can yield instant profits, here's a hand I *just* played against a 13/9/2 TAG specifically due to advice in this thread.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
5 folds, MP3 raises, 2 folds, SB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, MP3 bets, SB folds, Hero raises, MP3 calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, MP3 folds.

Final Pot: 6 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

Bootiful. Just don't start overdoing it now that you've seen it work. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

private joker

12-11-2005, 01:34 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Bootiful. Just don't start overdoing it now that you've seen it work. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I won't. I'm very selective with my FPS. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Jake (The Snake)

12-11-2005, 03:11 AM

Hey Harv,

Do you ever do this against someone you don't have a read on? And by read I don't mean TAG or stats, I mean somebody who you know will often release on the turn without a made hand.

I ask this because I'm wondering if you think this kind of play is profitable based on hand ranges alone or if you think we need to sometimes fold better hands like AK for example. I feel like against an unknown TAG, too often I would get called on the turn and then not know whether TAG has AK or a pocket pair on the river, and not know whether betting again is throwing money away.

jason_t

12-11-2005, 03:31 AM

According to my homeboy Ethan who is a stud and a stud expert you played this hand like a puss- E

Harv72b

12-11-2005, 05:05 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Hey Harv,

Do you ever do this against someone you don't have a read on? And by read I don't mean TAG or stats, I mean somebody who you know will often release on the turn without a made hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll give it a shot sometimes against someone who I just know as a TAG based on PT stats, or someone I have tagged as "2+2'er" but don't know exactly who it is. It doesn't always work, obviously--sometimes I get called down by AK, sometimes by a weak pair, sometimes by the weirdest stuff.

My thinking is that, even when it doesn't work or I've misread the opponent, someone at the table will notice that I made a play at the pot without a hand and take note of it. This obviously means that I can often take this precise line after flopping a monster (or getting cute with a high PP preflop) and get action. I think it also makes people think twice about raising my blinds lightly, which is a good thing. Note that I'm talking about 5/10 games (and whenever I stray higher); I wouldn't recommend trying this on 2/4 or below unless you have a very detailed read on your opponent. Or it's a 2+2 table. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Of course, the flip side is that my variance skyrockets with plays like this, and I'm less likely to push someone off of overcards or a weak draw when I have a vulnerable made hand. I live with it. /images/graemlins/grin.gif