Intersting quote from "The Professer, the Banker, and the Suicide King

[ggbman]

I need to find to exact quote, but Barry Greenstein says something to the degree of "Outside of the Corporation, Andy Beal is the best HU limit holdem player in the world" and "There was a lot of risk for us because we only have something like a 2-1 edge". I will double check to make sure i understood correctly, but if i did this is [censored] hilarious. You have to be [censored] horrible to be q 2-1 dog, let alone be a world class player. So many people would glady play these guys if they offered them 2-1 or even 60-40 on their money.

[TStoneMBD]

you should include the blind structure and duration of play before making a post like this. iirc they played over a very long period of time.

I dont have the book infront of me but if I remember correctly they played around 200 hours with eachtother which is like 5k hands. I think many players would play them if they were given 60/40.

I think the statement is a blantant lie. I have never seen barry or howard play the 500/1000 games online. I dont know but isnt it pointless to play in the "big game" if everybody there is better than everybody else. Also is that game running every day?

And if they are so great at no limit as they also claim why arent they playing in the 100/200 nl game on prima. I say its all bs and that they are good enough to beat business men who play poker for fun but would never be able to hang with the best online players.

Ps. I wouldnt be so harsh if it wasnt for the fact that these guys claim to be gods of poker. I am all for table selection and playing within your skill level. But if you arent good enough dont say you are.

[La Brujita]

You don't think BG or Ivey for example would have an edge in the 100-200nl game online?

I think they both would have a decent edge and curious what others think.

[Army Eye]

[ QUOTE ]

I think the statement is a blantant lie. I have never seen barry or howard play the 500/1000 games online.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would they play that small?

[ QUOTE ]

And if they are so great at no limit as they also claim why arent they playing in the 100/200 nl game on prima.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you repeatedly think these guys should, for whatever reason, step down in stakes. To prove themselves, or something? Interesting take.

[ggbman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I think the statement is a blantant lie. I have never seen barry or howard play the 500/1000 games online.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would they play that small?

[ QUOTE ]

And if they are so great at no limit as they also claim why arent they playing in the 100/200 nl game on prima.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you repeatedly think these guys should, for whatever reason, step down in stakes. To prove themselves, or something? Interesting take.

[/ QUOTE ]

You get in at least 2x as many hands in, and also these are not huge jump downs in stakes. And Prima has 200/400 HU NL. I dont think any of those pro's would have a singificant edge, if they have any, over guys like Prahlad, greenplastic, Erik 123 etc...

They play primarily mixed games and play maybe 1/10th as many hands per month of limit or NL hold-em in particualar. There is no reason online specialists in these areas would be big underdogs.

[imported_CaseClosed326]

I think the quote is that the Banker becomes one of the top limit holdem players. Not that he is better than everyone outside the corp.

[ggbman]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the quote is that the Banker becomes one of the top limit holdem players. Not that he is better than everyone outside the corp.

[/ QUOTE ]

Could be, they still wouldnt have a 2-1 edge though, or anything close to it

[mmcd]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think the quote is that the Banker becomes one of the top limit holdem players. Not that he is better than everyone outside the corp.

[/ QUOTE ]

Could be, they still wouldnt have a 2-1 edge though, or anything close to it

[/ QUOTE ]

Wasn't Beal playing really long sessions and the pros kept subbing in fresh players? If so 2-1 isn't completely ridiciulous.

[Punker]

Quote:

I didn't have any misgivings about playing him higher when we were ahead of him. But whenever something negative happens, you have a bunch of people whining. And let's say we're a two to one favorite. Two to one favorites don't always win.

I don't think he's saying he thought they were a 2-1 favorite.

[andyfox]

"It's not guaranteed that we'll win. Andy's a pretty good player."

"When you play him [Beal], you're probably, at best, a two-to-one favorite, maybe even less. If you counted just wins and losses, we're probably ahead 57 percent to 43 percent or something like that. His losses have been bigger than his wins. When he's losing, his game deteriorates. That's something that's not as likely to happen when we're losing. Plus we have the advantage of putting in new players--fresh players, players with the most success against him or whose styles match up best. When you consider that we're the best in the world and we have those other advantages, it's pretty even. It's not really clear that, on skill, alone, we're better than Andy."

Page 252

[cdxx]

that's what i thought it meant. if you were to take the corporation as a field against Beal, they were 2-1

any one of the corp is much closer, perhaps even an underdog

[TStoneMBD]

ivey reported making 100k playing online poker in a months time even while he was actively playing in the live 4k-8k game. yet ivey plays live as his regular game. these players are making ALOT of money.

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
"It's not guaranteed that we'll win. Andy's a pretty good player."

"When you play him , you're probably, at best, a two-to-one favorite, maybe even less. If you counted just wins and losses, we're probably ahead 57 percent to 43 percent or something like that. His losses have been bigger than his wins. When he's losing, his game deteriorates. That's something that's not as likely to happen when we're losing. Plus we have the advantage of putting in new players--fresh players, players with the most success against him or whose styles match up best. When you consider that we're the best in the world and we have those other advantages, it's pretty even. [b]It's not really clear that, on skill, alone, we're better than Andy."

Page 252

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah I remember that part and it was surprising to see that Greenstein didn't think they had an edge in skill alone.

[dibbs]

These statements are very humorous when loaded, Ill have to give it a sober look.

The games you mentioned for them to prove themselves are very small for them, I doubt they feel the need to bother.

[henrikrh]

In regards to the corperation playing 100/200 online etc. and proving themselves. This is just stupid, they don't need to prove themselves. The proving ground of the poker world pretty much is the Big Game. Besides online they hardly have an advantage, but not because the are worse at poker or any specific game, because part of their advantage is in tells much the same way part of an online players advantage is in Poker Tracker and they probably don't use poker tracker or if they do they won't wield it with the same effectiveness as a 100/200 regular online. Maybe Prhalad or whoever should prove themselves and sit down in the big game, you really think they would survive?

[mother_brain]

If Prahlad has a big night he might make 100 or 200K.
This was 1BB in the games Beal was playing.
I think he would be a favorite heads up in the situation he created.
As for teh comments on teh odds. The games they were playing were less than 75BB a lot of times they just went back and forth for hours on end.
My personal opinion was that the entire book didn't provide a large enough sample size to be certain of much at all.

[disjunction]

If live play increases their edge in any way (the pros will be more attentive, they will be better at Pokertracker-like activities in their head, small tells, etc., also **decreased variance**), this addresses both issues raised in this thread.

[joel2006]

500/1000 is a huge jump down from 4k/8k against the world's best, there are pros who beat 500/1k games live but get eaten up in the big game. I don't doubt that some of the big pros might haev a little trouble initially online as they adjust, but then they would crush those games provided they could keep interested long enough.

[kenberman]

[ QUOTE ]
If Prahlad has a big night he might make 100 or 200K.
This was 1BB in the games Beal was playing.
I think he would be a favorite heads up in the situation he created.

[/ QUOTE ]

umm, the book was written about Limit Hold Em

Thanks for starting a thread in which you don't know the quote and don't understand it.

[ggbman]

The quote is "When we play Andy Beal, we're at best a two to 1 favorite, maybe even less."

Here's the thing, if they played for 500 hours (which they didn't) at 40 hands an hour they played like 20,000 hands HU. This is NOT EVEN CLOSE to being enough to give any sort of reasonable barometer about either parties expectations. Furthermore, the insuination that they could have a 2-1 edge against ANY solid opponent is humurous. If you know anything edges in poker, you will know this to be true.

[Spook]

40 hands an hour HEADS UP?
I can play 40 hands an hour of 4/8 at a full live table.

[ggbman]

for shits sake, stop nit picking. They played less than 20,000 hands HU.

[AceHigh]

[ QUOTE ]
I need to find to exact quote, but Barry Greenstein says something to the degree of "Outside of the Corporation, Andy Beal is the best HU limit holdem player in the world"

[/ QUOTE ]

I really doubt "The Corporation" are the best HU limit players in the world. They rarely play hold 'em in the big mixed games because there are so many good limit hold em players. I know Ivey admitted to making some mistakes (mostly preflop folds) in the NBC HU NL tournament that Sklansky would never make.

[ggbman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I need to find to exact quote, but Barry Greenstein says something to the degree of "Outside of the Corporation, Andy Beal is the best HU limit holdem player in the world"

[/ QUOTE ]

I really doubt "The Corporation" are the best HU limit players in the world. They rarely play hold 'em in the big mixed games because there are so many good limit hold em players. I know Ivey admitted to making some mistakes (mostly preflop folds) in the NBC HU NL tournament that Sklansky would never make.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. Some people don't realize that just because these guys are great at all forms of poker doesn't mean they will fare well against a specialist for one kind. I seriously doubt David Oppenheim is a dog to may of the corporation players in HU limit hold-em. A good example is how Negreanu didn't want a rematch with Joe Cassidy, who doesn't play anywhere near close to the Big Game stakes on a regular basis, but is a limit HE specialist.

Does Joe Cassidy play online? He cant be the best if he does. There is only one champ right now and its erik123.

He never gets a game if there arent atleast 2 fish in the game. I have never seen him play HU or 3 handed in years vs competent opponents. Everybody just sit out.

[mmcd]

[ QUOTE ]
Furthermore, the insuination that they could have a 2-1 edge against ANY solid opponent is humurous. If you know anything edges in poker, you will know this to be true.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think you are vastly underestimating the effect of them having several players going against him. If you took 7 players that were equally skilled in HU holdem, and grouped 6 of them into a "team" that could substitute players anytime they wanted and discuss their opponent's play amongst themselves, and pitted that team against the 7th player in a series of lengthy heads up matches, how much of an edge do you think the team would have?

[TStoneMBD]

if erik123 was as good as you say he probably would have taken daniel negreanu up on his challenges.

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
40 hands an hour HEADS UP?
I can play 40 hands an hour of 4/8 at a full live table.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd be willing to wager that you can't.

[worm33]

heads up live with an auto shuffler it is more like 47-50. In those games though it might have been more like 40 because im sure there were more hands than usual played to the river and less blind steals. and less check folding on the flop.

[ggbman]

[ QUOTE ]
if erik123 was as good as you say he probably would have taken daniel negreanu up on his challenges.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not true at all. he could have a reasoable edge against DN Negreanu and still not think it's worth it to play for that much $$$ when his edge isn't as large as it is in his regular games. The whole idea of those HU freezeouts is nutty, especially when your opponents get to choose the stakes and what game, i definitly think DN would get eaten up alive if he played a thousand of these, beause he is going to be challenged by specialists in their best games

[Danenania]

That and he lives in Sweden.

[tongni]

[ QUOTE ]
if erik123 was as good as you say he probably would have taken daniel negreanu up on his challenges.

[/ QUOTE ]

No really, he's quite good.

I have a 2-1 advantage over the Corp. and Beal even if the player I'm up against gets dealt 5 down cards to use instead of 2.

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
It's not really clear that, on skill, alone, we're better than Andy."

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this that it's "not really clear".

Beal is a genius. After the first match he did work on his game and it showed in later matches. From reading the book his main mistake seemed to be that he tilted a bit (correctable, maybe he should hire Tommy) and that he tended to play too long against fresh opponents.

Matches of five to six hours on his home court may favor Beal.

~ Rick

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]
if erik123 was as good as you say he probably would have taken daniel negreanu up on his challenges.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do a $100,000 to $500,000 freeze out where he and Daniel both know Erik is the favorite and Daniel will try to counter that by making the structure one to limit the skill factor as much as possible (and therefore turn it into a six digit coin flip where Erik might have a 52% chance of winning), when he can grind out nice wins at the $100/200 to $300/600 levels online to the tune of a couple mill a year?

I'm with the others that say Erik is that good.