8/b: (TT)Q - playable?

[AKQJ10]

Another tournament hand. OK, I really abused Zee's advice that the "best high hand" is playable by raising into a king (the two aces didn't scare me as much because there were two of them). That said, should I have gotten away on 4th street when another ten died?

Stage #262012343 Tourney ID 55981 Seven Card Multi Normal Tournament Normal $50/$100 - 2005-12-09 18:53:23 (ET)
Table: 2 (Real Money)
Seat 1 - Seat1 ($1438.50 in chips)
Seat1 - Ante $10
Seat 2 - Seat2 ($1958.50 in chips)
Seat2 - Ante $10
Seat 3 - Seat3 ($1243.50 in chips)
Seat3 - Ante $10
Seat 4 - Hero ($1316 in chips)
Hero - Ante $10
Seat 5 - Seat5 ($1243 in chips)
Seat5 - Ante $10
Seat 6 - Seat6 ($1800.50 in chips)
Seat6 - Ante $10
Seat 7 - Seat7 ($1500 in chips)
Seat7 - Ante $10
*** 3rd STREET ***
Seat1 - Pocket [H H As]
Seat2 - Pocket [H H Ah]
Seat3 - Pocket [H H 5s]
Hero - Pocket [10c 10s Qh]
Seat5 - Pocket [H H Kc]
Seat6 - Pocket [H H 2c]
Seat7 - Pocket [H H 4h]
Seat6 - Bring-In $15
Seat7 - Calls $15
Seat1 - Calls $15
Seat2 - Folds
Seat3 - Folds
Hero - Raises $50 to $50
Seat5 - Folds
Seat6 - Calls $35
Seat7 - Calls $35
Seat1 - Calls $35
*** 4TH STREET ***
Seat1 - Pocket [H H As 3c]
Hero - Pocket [10c 10s Qh Jd]
Seat6 - Pocket [H H 2c 8h]
Seat7 - Pocket [H H 4h 10d]
Seat1 - Bets $50
Hero - Calls $50
Seat6 - Calls $50
Seat7 - Calls $50
*** 5TH STREET ***
Seat1 - Pocket [H H As 3c 3d]
Hero - Pocket [10c 10s Qh Jd 3s]
Seat6 - Pocket [H H 2c 8h 9d]
Seat7 - Pocket [H H 4h 10d 5c]
Seat1 - Bets $100
Hero - Folds
...

I'm probably being too loose on third street for a tournament, sounds like from my last post.

[Spladle Master]

Fold third and it is not close. Raising is just plain dumb.

[AKQJ10]

Thanks.

For my further education, (1) Is Zee correct that the best high hand is a good hand at Stud/8? and (2) what about (TT)Q with only low upcards showing?

[beta1607]

I can't speak for the games that Zee's book was intended to apply to, however in games where average joes like us play I think the advice is incorrect if you have no low potential. I think anything less then a pair of kings should be an auto fold on third unless you are playing short handed or something.

TTQ should always be an auto fold. There are far too many high hands people will easily back into that will beat you.

[benwood]

It's not only the K behind you that weakens your hand.The big pairs play best heads up or maybe 3 handed.If you raise after 3 low cards are already in there,you are likely to tie them into the hand.You don't want this.Also,the player with the A could still "accidently" hit another one,even though there are only 2 left.

[benwood]

4th st:Yea,let it go.When 2 out of the 3 of them catch another low card,your equity's getting pretty slim.

[Notorious G.O.B.]

Preliminary math indicates that you have a smallish hot-cold edge. That doesn't necessarily mean you should play, but I suspect that it might be "ok" to limp and see how 4th street comes out. You tread on unsteady ground if you decide to play, though.
Notes:
1. I evaluated the hand as if it was a cash game, quite possible that tourney situation swings it into 'must fold' status.
2. Two ace upcards make it more, not less likely that someone has a pair of aces. The action before it gets to you makes it unlikely that anyone has aces, though.

[Aaron W.]

Tens in the hole with a couple limpers. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=4118810&an=0&page=0#Post 4118810) I'm glad I'm not the only one asking questions like this.

[imported_getfunky]

ok, agreed that tens and jacks should be folded unless opening in last position or in other rare circumstances .. but could somebody tell me the advantage of split kings vs buried queens with a baby - i think the hands run close in value, however I prefer the a,qq or 5,qq to the split kings.

Of course the higher the pair the better, but you're usually fighting off aces in 8/b anyway, when the low draw hits a live one and you fold early in the hand .. speaking of which I've found that when I fold the high hand to live aces, suited baby connectors, and baby door pairs on 4th street, I can expect a plethora of bluffs headed my way, therefore, I'm forced to make more calls here than I'd wish, and occasionally get burned because of it - however I feel like I'd lose more money the other way - any sugesstions, thoughts etc.

[benwood]

In his book,Ray Zee did say"the best high hand is a good hand at stud8".He also said(1)"Big pairs can be costly when several players with low cards have already entered the pot.",(2)"If you lack experience,throwing high pairs away may save you a lot of bets.",&(3)"If you are trying to determine whether to play a big pair,and the situation is close,here are some things to consider.1.Is your hand live?2.Do you have a two straight and/or a two flush? 3.Do you have a chance to make a low hand-that is,do you have a small card for a kicker?"

[Beavis68]

I used to play any pair because you will flop a a set 1 in every 8.5 times and I had good implied odds.

Then I remembered there is no flop.

[AKQJ10]

benwood,

You (and consensus) are correct. I went back and reviewed that item in Zee. As all of you have said, he points out that you generally prefer to play the best high hand heads-up against an obvious low, and that the more lows are in the pot the greater the chance one catches aces or better.

I suppose I'm lucky that, rather than dribbling away money on this leak, the rolled-up fives made my crash-and-burn so spectacular that I'm guaranteed to learn from it! /images/graemlins/grin.gif