Tough Turn Decision

[rforman13]

I don't post here often..so forgive me if I don't format something properly. Its just post break in a Stars rebuy tourney (so no more rebuys). I have slightly above average stack and this hand develops. Thoughts..

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero (t11630)
MP2 (t5690)
MP3 (t8625)
CO (t7145)
Button (t3135)
SB (t19215)
BB (t29325)
UTG (t21660)
UTG+1 (t9190)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t400</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP3 calls t400, CO calls t400, Button calls t400, SB calls t325, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: (t2150) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t1050</font>, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB calls t1050.

Turn: (t4250) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t1850</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to t4200</font>, Hero...

[-Oz-]

By my quick calculation, you're getting around 5:1 on your call which is about what you need to hit your str8 on the river if it's good! He could have everything here from a made boat to a slowplayed overpair to a flush draw, so it's really hard to know where you are.

I think you overplayed your draw out of position and should fold here. Yes, the odds are attractive, but since they're verging on neutral and you don't really know if you have 14, 8, 6 or 0 outs, I'd lay down and find a better place to get involved with a now medium sized stack.

-Oz-

[Firefly]

PF raise...meh, but you have to be able to play decently postflop if you want to do this. btw: why 400 instead of 450?
Flop- you bet into FOUR people with an open ended straight and a backdoor flush draw. Not a good play here imho.
Turn- The board gets somewhat scarier without improving your hand, i'm taking a free card here 100% of the time and looking to get payed off on the river if i hit. As you played it, he came over your weak turn bet and you don't have the odds to draw to your straight (a J MAY be good for you)

[-Oz-]

While I was responding to the question at hand, I'm in full agreement that the hand was misplayed on every street up to the current quandry on the turn. I humbly suggest reading Ciaffone and Reuben's book for a thourough explanation of why playing drawing hands out of position is generally a bad thing.

-Oz-

[rforman13]

Ive played LHE and played it well for 11 years. My NL game is not where I'd like it to be...hence my inquiry.. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

The 400 PF raise was not significant. I mix my PF raises up usually between 2.5 - 4x BB. Depends on table action and other things obv.

Someone help me out on the turn bet. Seems like a decent time for a semibluff...I likely have 8 outs to win the hand, I can take it down on the turn if he folds..and he has not shown any aggression.

Thx for the advice so far. I am listening.

The PF raise is somewhat bleh, ah well, as long as you know what you are doing after the flop it's ok. I don't like the flop bet at all even tho you came out strong preflop. You are betting into 4 players here. I don't like this at all. Some off them usually have something they call you with. Sure you have outs but nah, what do you do incase of a re-raise?

I check the turn 100% of the time here. That 8 just made it more scarier and my % to hit a straight got even worse and my J and 10 may not even be outs.

I fold to his raise.

[-Oz-]

The fact that you are a LH player explains a lot. I, too, was a LH player until switching to the dark side a few years ago.

In short: when making the switch from LH to NLH, almost all hands go down in value in early position, but especially drawing type hands (like QJs) that are pretty reasonable starting hands in LH. The main problem is that it is so difficult to play them profitably out of position.

The difficulty arises from the player's ability to control the pot odds in NL. Since a "good" flop for a drawing hand is a draw (duh /images/graemlins/smile.gif ), when you are out of position, your opponents can price you off of it. And even when they don't, when you make your draw, it's usually obvious and it can be difficult to make anything substantial on it when your opponents have even 1/2 a clue.

Drawing hands play so much better in position (like most other hands) because now you can make semi-bluff plays to balance your game a little. Again, Ciaffone explains this much better than I could in his Pot Limit and No Limit Poker book. Highly recommended.

-Oz-

[rforman13]

Thanks for the reply Oz. I think you are reading me well /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I should say...although may be embarrased to do so..but I have been playing NL tourneys for those 11 years...just much more LHE. Before the poker boom..I thought I was a decent NL tourney player and have cashed in some decent sized events...but lately, I feel that I have really fallen behind the curve. I feel fine in NL SnGs and NL cash games when I play them...but my MTT game feels so brutal right now.

FWIW, I nearly timed out..and decided to make the call, hit the 7 on the river and called when he pushed with his trip 8s. I felt it was very borderline, but I decided to gamble.

I ended up winning a huge pot with AA vs KK vs AQ to build to about 38k...then slowly whittled my way down to 20k before donking it off with about 130 people left.

Thanks for the responses and for the reading recs.

[adanthar]

This is how you should probably, although not necessarily, play your hand at a loose table: fold preflop, bet more on the flop (or try to CR since a free card doesn't really hurt you), check behind on the turn (because that card didn't help you but might very well have helped him.)

Also, Ciaffrone's book is pretty weak/tight IIRC and what you really want is Harrington on Hold'Em 1 (but not 2.)

[-Oz-]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, Ciaffrone's book is pretty weak/tight IIRC and what you really want is Harrington on Hold'Em 1 (but not 2.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Well ... not to hijack the thread, but I take a little exception to this characterization of Ciaffone's book (not taking anything away from Harrington's, which is superb also). The focus of the two books is different. Harrington is for tourney play and Ciaffone is more geared toward cash play. IMO, the main differences between the advice has to do with deep stack vs medium/short stack play.

My advice is to buy both and make up your own mind. But to date, Ciaffone's explanation of the effect of how differing stack sizes can radically change the correct play is the best I've read.

{harrumph, weak-tight indeed /images/graemlins/smile.gif }

-Oz-

[MLG]

I think folding preflop here is not good at all.

[bruce]

On the turn he wasn't OOP.

Bruce

[-Oz-]

My mistake Bruce, you are correct. That does change things a little. Does it change a fold into a call? Giving the SB credit for trip 8's, how many outs do we have? 8, 4, or 0. I still think calling the check-raise on the turn and calling a jam on the river if the str8 gets there is a pretty marginal play. Call me weak-tight, but I still think I fold after the check-raise for the same reasons already cited.

With position, I would forgo the semi-bluff bet on the turn, because that is how I'd normally play a big pair (which is the hand that's been represented up to this point). Get to the river for free and reevaluate the action should the str8 get there. Given the results, I suspect that line would have won the same amount that the hero's line did, but at much reduced risk.

-Oz-

[bruce]

I agree. This was a poor turn bet. Too great a chance that
hero is drawing skinny. Why bet when you can see a free turn card and the likelyhood of semibluffing the turn is low?

Bruce

[reecelights]

You already semi-bluffed the flop and got called. Take the free card.

You are now faced with calling (albeit with 5-1 odds) and having invested nearly half your stack on a play agianst players who are still hyped up from rebuy time and calling with any pair. I think you have to fold to the re-raise; you do this all the time in limit even with odds to call, do you not?