New 2 O/8 Weak tight?kinda long.

[CaliQ]

I've only been playing Omaha for about 3 mo so and I have made some observations in game as well as reading the posts on here and have some questions. I am a long time HE player and play very tight/aggressive poker in all games(HE/Stud/Lowball).

It seems to me that a lot of people play a conservative style of play and wait until they have the nuts or close to it then bang the pot. This goes against my nature of getting my chips in the pot when I have the best of it and charging people the max to draw out on me. I see a lot of people check/call with trips even when there doesn't appear to be a str8 or flush out there and even on the river they will check call. Is this sound strategy? If I hit my top set on the flop, even if there is flush and str8 draws out there I will ram and jam it because I feel like I have the best hand at that moment especially if I have redraws. I will bet and checkraise with top 2 as long as I have draws to low and high, etc. I have seen most people only check call with these type of hands. It seems everyone is afraid of being drawn out on.

In a nutshell I guess I am asking for opinions on what I guess would be considered weak/tight in other games is a better approach to Omaha. I am not calling anyone weak/tight who plays this way(it would be considered that in a HE game), sorry if I offended, I was just wondering if this approach is better than being aggressive on all streets.

An example would be that with a flop of 993 and 3 players I chose to check raise my AA35. 2 players both said "he's got trips" and folded and the last player followed to the river on busted low draw. Was this too aggressive? I will also raise in early postition with hands like AKKQ,AKQJ, etc. because most people so far have assumed I am raising only with ABC and will fold mediocre low hands and high hands.

Like I have said I am brand new to the game and so far this strategy has worked well and I have been completly crushing the games I play in(4/8 cali games). I don't have near enough data to show if I am a winning player so I want to get some opinions before I get too cocky and fall back to earth /forums/images/icons/wink.gif . thanks in advance and once again I am not calling anyone who plays this way weak tight I just didn't know how else to describe it. I guess it is against my nature to check/call until I am sure I have the nuts then get aggessive.

[CaliQ]

Another question I had was for Cali players, does the button charge allow you to play some looser hands? A4xx etc. Hands you don't normally play, but will play because you are 1/2 a bet in the pot.

[rkiray]

I'm new at this also, so this may be way off, but here's my take. (Also I just glad to see someone else participating in this forum, it's been really dead). The 4 cards in an O8 starting hand allow for many more big hands or draws to be out against you. It's not twice as many but almost six times as many since there are six different 2 card combinations possible from the 4 cards. This is slightly mititgated by the rule requiring you to always use two of your starting cards. But from what I've seen O8 games are looser than HE, so the rule of six is probably a good rule of thumb. Also since many pots are split, raising early hurts you more here since you need to keep people in to build big pots unless you think you will scoop the whole pot. Also it's hard to get people, because even if you have the nut high, no matter how much you raise you can't get the nut low out, and if there are just two of you in the pot, all you are doing is contributing more rake to the house.

That said, I also am struglling to adapt my aggressive HE game to O8.

[HDPM]

"An example would be that with a flop of 993 and 3 players I chose to check raise my AA35. 2 players both said "he's got trips" and folded and the last player followed to the river on busted low draw"

LOL. "Busted low draw" on a 993 flop sounds like Fossilman's story about a flop of '6-4-rag.' Sounds like you're in good games and the flop checraise actually might work OK on that flop. But if players draw to lows heads up on a 993 flop they may very well play hands with nines in them. Sounds like you are a little too aggressive. If you're crushing the games though.... So how many hours do you have in? I also think jamming on the flop is more dangerous in omaha because of what rkiray said. The likelihood someone ios going to get there is higher. Top set is always nice, but what if you have middle set and there are straights and flushes out there. Someone may have 2 pair and a big draw. Then again, I am new to O8 too and I probably play too passively. Maybe we should average our games. /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

[redmarion]

Well, I have another perspective. I've been playing O/8 since 1996. I started playing 3/6 full kill and 5/10/20 kill to 10/20. I played like you said and I paid for my lessons (oh yeah!).

Your description of the games you've played indicates that you played against weak-tight players and got lucky.

The 9,9,3 flop is a situation you probably have the best hand with your AA since only a player catching a side 9 would have a reason to continue. Hands starting with 7,8,9's are inherently weak. 4 big cards are sometimes worth a look at the flop but could turn into long term looser. Chasing lows heads-up and betting players out with big draws is long term loosing strategy. You'll only find youself in pots with good players ready to take your money. Most good/expert O/8 players love to see Holdemitis players sit down, makes for a very good game (know what I mean!). Long term: A. they get lucky and leave. B. They leave their money, more than not.
Chopping small pots is loosing strategy. Scooping pots is the only way to go.
You've been lucky. Armagadoen is on the horizen.

[CaliQ]

Yeah, I figured that me crushing the games was going to come to an ugly end eventually. That's why I wanted to get some opinions before that happened. I have ordered Mr. Zee's book and am waiting patiently. I have nowhere near enough hours to get a good read on my play so we'll see. And posting hands on here seems to be a good way to get straightened out. Thanks for your replies.

[Aragorn]

Most of the advice in this thread is pretty good. I would add a couple of things. The reason most people tend to play the nuts in Omaha is that is more than 2 or 3 people take the flop the odds are very good that someone does have the nuts.

>>This goes against my nature of getting my chips in the pot when I have the best of it and charging people the max to draw out on me. I see a lot of people check/call with trips even when there doesn't appear to be a str8 or flush out there and even on the river they will check call. Is this sound strategy? If I hit my top set on the flop, even if there is flush and str8 draws out there I will ram and jam it because I feel like I have the best hand at that moment especially if I have redraws.

Generally if you have the best possible high hand you should play aggressively. You want to make people play for drawing out on you. But by the time you get to the river, a set, even top set, isn't usually that good a hand. In almost every case there is a possible straight or possible flush. Getting into raising wars on the river with less than then nuts is a great way to give your money away.

>>I will bet and checkraise with top 2 as long as I have draws to low and high, etc. I have seen most people only check call with these type of hands. It seems everyone is afraid of being drawn out on.

Top 2 isn't that strong a hand in Omaha. And people are afraid of being drawn out on because usually they will be. Top 2, without improving will win you a little or cost you a lot. The only way you win a big pot is if you fill up.

[CaliQ]

What I meant, is that I will push top 2 if I have draws to the nut low and redraws(flush, str8 etc.) I figured out fairly quickly and from reading the fine threads on this forum is the name of the game is to scoop. Thanks for the input Aragorn

[rkiray]

A lot of the ideas in my post were things I picked up from you and Buzz talking about the hands I've posted here recently. A week ago I would not have been able to write that post.

[iblucky4u2]

When it comes to playing O/8, you actually hit the nail on the head when you were talking about your other games - "I am a long time HE player and play very tight/aggressive poker in all games(HE/Stud/Lowball)." If you play O/8 the same way - tight/aggressive, you will be a winner at the game.

The key is to understand what a hand is really worth in this game, not HE. Top set with str8 &amp; flush draws don't rate to hold - almost as bad as a flopped low str8. If the low is already made - e.f. flop of A-4-7, as low hand is freerolling against you even if you have a set of A's. (e.g. last night I raised in the CO with As3sAd4d and after a flop of A37r the hand with A2-4-5 was able to check-raise me with a guarantee of at least 1/2 the pot - and scooped when the 2 hit the river (: <font color="red"> </font color> !

You should be aware that raising with the low should only be done with at least 4 other players. That way, when you get quartered you won't loose money.

On the other hand, your observation that people check with sets on the river that are the nuts (or other nut hands)still call. This can be an advantage for you when you would pound it, but the other side is in a good O/8 game, if you raise with the nuts, all those chasers, both high and low, will not be encouraged to put that one big bet into your stack.

Play that tight/aggressive game, just learn from Ray Zee's book, 2+2 and your own experience what makes the O/8 hand worth your chips.

[Buzz]

CaliQ -

"In a nutshell I guess I am asking for opinions on what I guess would be considered weak/tight in other games is a better approach to Omaha"

To answer the main thrust of your post, I don’t think weak/tight Omaha-8 play is the way to success. Instead, I think you want to project a tough image - and you probably will have to play in such a way as to *earn* the tough image. You obviously don’t want to be in the position of calling with a losing hand, and there is not nearly as much bluffing in Omaha-8 as in Texas hold ‘em, so that playing weak is a temptation. However, neither do you want to be chased out of pot after pot on the final betting round when you might have a winner - and being chased out of pots is what you face when you get a “weak” image.

However, overly-aggressive play is not the way to success in Omaha-8 either - although it might work very well against some opponents - in particular against weak/tight opponents. I think you want to be tight, tough, and aggressive - but not overly-aggressive - and not so tenacious that you become a calling station.

"An example would be that with a flop of 993 and 3 players I chose to check raise my AA35. 2 players both said "he's got trips" and folded and the last player followed to the river on busted low draw. Was this too aggressive?"

I don’t know how to respond. Sounds like you’re playing against buffoons. Two announce you have a nine when you check-raise? Seems a foolish thing for them to do! And then one chases you to the river without a nine drawing for low after a flop with only one low card? What poor play! Alas, I don’t have the good fortune to get many opponents like that.

When I put money into the pot without a nine (or a pair of threes) after a flop of 993, I’m betting that none of my opponents holds a nine either (or a pair of threes). Doesn’t matter if the game is Texas hold ‘em, Omaha, or Omaha-8. If I could see that one of my opponents had a nine after a flop of 993, I wouldn’t play unless I also had a nine, a pair of threes, or possibly two overpairs (depending on the first round action). Would you?

Does that make sense to you? Seems very logical to me. Whether you bet, call a bet, or check-raise - when you put money into the pot after a flop of 993, you either (1) have trips (or better), (2) have favorable odds to draw for a winner, or (3) you're betting none of your opponents holds trips or better.

Suppose you’re in first position in an Omaha-8 game with a AAXX, three opponents have seen the flop, you check, the next two players also check and the player in last position bets. What’s going on with the last position player who has bet here? Either the player making the bet is holding a nine (or a pair of threes) - or the player making the bet thinks none of the players in one of the first three betting positions has a nine (or a pair of threes) and is trying for a post-flop steal. Right? But which is it?

Well.... I think the odds are better than five to one the player making this last position bet does not have a nine (or a pair of threes) and wants to use position to steal the pot.

Suppose you check, the next player bets, and the remaining two players fold to the bet. I think the odds are still better than five to one the player who has bet doesn’t have a nine.

In either of these cases, a check raise by you, in my humble opinion, would be an excellent play in a limit game of Omaha-8.

However, suppose you check, somebody bets, and at least one other player calls. Now what do you think about check-raising? - (or even playing your AAXX at all)? Doesn’t it look a lot as though *somebody* has a nine (or better)? Doesn’t it look as though possibly more than one of your opponents is ahead of you at this point? Do you think a bluff is going to work here against an opponent with trips or better? - even a weak/tight player?

From reading what you have written, I’d guess you probably have enough poker sense to recognize when a check-raise bluff might work and when not to try it. In my humble opinion, after a flop of 993 your check-raise bluff has an excellent chance of working in those instances where none of your opponents holds a nine or a pair of threes - and you don't even need a pair of aces to pull it off.

"I guess it is against my nature to check/call until I am sure I have the nuts then get aggessive."

Hmm. Whatever. It wouldn't be against *my* nature, if that was the way to success. However, although suggesting beginners - especially those who tend to play too many hands and then tend to have Texas hold 'em type expectations for the winning chances of non-nut hands - should play what is generally described as "weak/tight" may not be bad advice for beginners, the way to success in tougher Omaha-8 games is not quite that simple.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[CaliQ]

Thanks for the replies and the help. Much appreciated. I have just recieved Zee's book and am in the process of reading and rereading. Lots more to the game than I expected at first. I probably won't crush the games as much now that I kinda know what I am doing /forums/images/icons/grin.gif .