KK - Ace on the flop. Common situation, I need to fix it

[pergesu]

Second hand of the tourney.


Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

UTG+1 (t800)
UTG+2 (t800)
MP1 (t800)
MP2 (t800)
MP3 (t670)
CO (t770)
Button (t975)
SB (t785)
Hero (t800)
UTG (t800)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, MP2 calls t15, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Button calls t15, SB completes, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t75</font>, MP2 calls t60, Button folds, SB folds.

Flop: (t177.50) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets t125</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t302.50


This kinda thing happens a billion times a day, and I'm not sure what to do. Betting imo is -EV because I only get called/raised by an ace. Checking, on the other hand, just says "Yo dude, take it, I'm a pussy."

I'll toss out a pot sized bet usually, so long as the flop isn't too coordinated. Any reraise and I'm out...it's the situations in which someone calls that I have trouble with. Go after the pot on the turn if a non scary card pops up, or give it up and check?

I usually bet out 100 on any flop. If there's an ace and he doesn't fold I'm usually done with it though.

I think you play in much higher levels than I do, and you FREQUENTLY get the Ax crowd in with this at my level.

I wonder if at the higher/"smarter" levels, you can still represent a better ace (or the only A) than the caller and throw out that 3/4 - pot size bet and get AT and below to muck. But, yeah, I hate this spot.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
Second hand of the tourney.


Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

UTG+1 (t800)
UTG+2 (t800)
MP1 (t800)
MP2 (t800)
MP3 (t670)
CO (t770)
Button (t975)
SB (t785)
Hero (t800)
UTG (t800)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, MP2 calls t15, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Button calls t15, SB completes, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t75</font>, MP2 calls t60, Button folds, SB folds.

Flop: (t177.50) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets t125</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t302.50


This kinda thing happens a billion times a day, and I'm not sure what to do. Betting imo is -EV because I only get called/raised by an ace. Checking, on the other hand, just says "Yo dude, take it, I'm a pussy."

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude thats ridiculous you need to bet out. Yes you only get called/raised by an ace, but you take away the chance of him bluffing, of which is a bluff you will not call. You don't make every bet in poker to get called by worse hands. Just because only better hands than yours will call, doesnt make your bet wrong. The way you play it, you let some bozo with any two cards just fire one bullet and take the pot from you. This is an obvious bet...imo checking here is just terrible at the lower limits.

[pergesu]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you play in much higher levels than I do, and you FREQUENTLY get the Ax crowd in with this at my level.

[/ QUOTE ]

I play 22s...so unless you're playing micro STTs, I can't play at a much higher level /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Thanks for settin me straight curtains

[pergesu]

What do you do if he calls? Check-fold turn or fire again?

[ QUOTE ]
I play 22s...so unless you're playing micro STTs, I can't play at a much higher level


[/ QUOTE ]

lol...yeah, I see a bajillion posts and I assume your in the $1000000 STT crowd (plus your posts show far more knowledge than I have /images/graemlins/frown.gif ). Sorry 'bout that /images/graemlins/blush.gif So I definitely feel your pain in these situations.

[RobGW]

When you raise PF and bet out when an Ace comes on the flop, your representing the A. Most of the time he wont call unless he has the Ace himself. So if he calls, there is a good chance he has the Ace or sometimes he has a lower PP and doesnt want to believe you. Then you check the turn and hope to check it down. If he bets, he's probably got you beat. If he checks behind you probably still have the lead. That's where things get interesting and develping reads and such come into play. But the flop is a standard bet when heads up.

[ QUOTE ]
I'll toss out a pot sized bet usually, so long as the flop isn't too coordinated.

[/ QUOTE ]
Personally I am MORE inclined to make a pot sized bet on a coordinated board because I want to look like I'm protecting the ace I'm representing.

[RobGW]

I'm glad to see your back playing again. But imo this is exactly why you are going on long losing streaks. You don't play aggressively enough in general. Just play tight but aggressive. When you have a hand don't look for reasons to fold. Look for reasons to take that big pot down. You created this big pot. You can't just give it up like this. Lose your fear and you'll be better off. You'll still get sucked out on occasionally and go on losing streaks. But if you continue to play aggressively it will work in the long run. Playing passively just adds to the losses and lets people bluff at you or suck out on you.

[bones]

[ QUOTE ]
You don't play aggressively enough in general

[/ QUOTE ]

This is very funny. Anyone who has seen at least one full HH of his or talks to him on AIM will understand why.

[11t]

You check/fold if he calls. If you fire a 2/3 pot sized bet he only needs to fold 33% of the time for it to be +CEV.

Betting's still correct because they fold a good % of the time, and if you check you put yourself in a bad spot often.

[FlyWf]

"Betting imo is -EV because I only get called/raised by an ace."

That doesn't necessarily follow. Bet 2/3 pot, check/fold the turn.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
What do you do if he calls? Check-fold turn or fire again?

[/ QUOTE ]

Once he calls you are done...and you dont have to bet a huge amount on the flop...probably 100 is fine.

[psyduck]

Bet T100 and that's the last amount you're putting into the pot.

[EasilyFound]

[ QUOTE ]
You check/fold if he calls. If you fire a 2/3 pot sized bet he only needs to fold 33% of the time for it to be +CEV.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not a math wiz, but is that correct? Don't you have to win two of three times to turn a profit? Is EV different from CEV here?

If it is a $300 pot, and you bet $200 each time, you need to win more than once to turn a profit, right?

[Double Down]

"Personally I am MORE inclined to make a pot sized bet on a coordinated board because I want to look like I'm protecting the ace I'm represening. "

Yeah, but on a coordinated board such as AQ7 with 2 of a suit, even if you bet representing the ace, they may call with an ace, a queen, or a draw and you won't really know where u stand.

For what it's worth, my default play is I bet the flop if I'm against 1 opponent, but I check with 2 or more since the odds are that one of them connected with the ace, and probably with at least a jack kicker if they called my preflop raise. (Keep in mind, this pertains to the 215 level. Not sure what kinds of ace kickers people call with at lower limits)

[aujoz]

betting 1/2 of the pot, you need to win it 1/3 of the time to break even.

betting 2/3 of the pot, you need to win it 2/5 of the time to break even.

betting 1/1 of the pot, you need to win it 1/2 of the time to break even.

(i think)

[tewall]

If you make a half-pot bet, it only needs to succeed 1 time in 3 to break even. There's few situations, even against 2 opponents, where this won't be the case.

If you bet the pot, you need to succeed half the time, which is harder to do. People are just about as likely to fold to a half-pot bet as to pot. Heck a lot of times you see people betting the equivalent of a limit bet, like a fifth of the pot, and people fold. A lot of people don't pay any attention to pot odds. Bottom line is I think a pot bet is too much.

[GtrHtr]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm glad to see your back playing again. But imo this is exactly why you are going on long losing streaks. You don't play aggressively enough in general. Just play tight but aggressive. When you have a hand don't look for reasons to fold. Look for reasons to take that big pot down. You created this big pot. You can't just give it up like this. Lose your fear and you'll be better off. You'll still get sucked out on occasionally and go on losing streaks. But if you continue to play aggressively it will work in the long run. Playing passively just adds to the losses and lets people bluff at you or suck out on you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I find this post to be a little amazing. Anyone who's read Perg's posts, as you obviously have, would have the exact opposite reaction. Controlled mayhem comes to mind.

As to the hand, bet out a reasonable amount, then fold if challenged.

Passive? WTF? You see the hand he posted yesterday?