turning TP vs preflop raiser (1/2 on Stars)

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
Hero calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, Hero calls, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks.

Turn: (3.75 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls.

River: (6.75 BB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, Hero calls, UTG+2 folds.

Final Pot: 11.75 BB

The only read I have on the preflop raiser is that he raised with JJ overpair (cold called preflop MP) on flop and then called all the way after I reraised.
Comments on all streets are welcome.
Thank you.

[nomadtla]

I think this is a good example of why we should raise KQo (which I don't do enough) in EP. If we're 3bet preflop we can have a better idea of what we need and where we stand. If it's coldcalled we can bet this flop with an ISD, BDFD, and UI overs (cause multiple draws are sexy). This way we keep control of this hand. Then we bet the turn with the queen. And if that club comes on the river like it did here. I can feel much more sure bet/folding the river.

The overall problem I see is that since we didn't define our hand early I don't see how much weight we can put on MP1's river raise. If we've defined our hand the whole way I feel better laying down to that river raise.

But maybe I've made this all too confusing.

I don't understand "ISD, BDFD, UI", and for the preflop limp I'm just following SSH guideline.

"I can feel much more sure bet/folding the river."

You mean I should have folded to the river raise ?

Thank you !

[tiltaholic]

[ QUOTE ]
But maybe I've made this all too confusing.

[/ QUOTE ]

no. it's right.

raise pf, then lead the flop.

as OP played it...it's fine postflop.

[nomadtla]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand "ISD, BDFD, UI", and for the preflop limp I'm just following SSH guideline.

"I can feel much more sure bet/folding the river."

You mean I should have folded to the river raise ?

Thank you !

[/ QUOTE ]

ISD = inside straight draw
BDFD = Back door flush draw
UI = unimproved, since your overs didn't pair.

I know KQo is an EP limp by SSH, and I'm sad to say I limp it about 60/40. I'm just saying this hand gives a perfect example of why a raise of KQo preflop gives us the ability to play better postflop. It's acctually opening my eyes to see why a lot of people here say it's a must raise in EP.

And no given the way you played it calling that river raise makes sense, and I think I would if in that position.

I'm saying if you raise preflop, bet flop, bet turn, and then bet that river you would have to plan to fold to a raise since you've shown strength the whole way. If you played it differently then his river raise has more definition to it. Does that make more sense?

[Marquis]

Are you guys calling the river raise because once in a while we'll chop? 'Cuz it certainly looks like we're beat.

[tiltaholic]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you guys calling the river raise because once in a while we'll chop? 'Cuz it certainly looks like we're beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

no, i'm calling b/c once in a while we win.

[DCWildcat]

I haven't read any of the other responses, but if they don't say exactly this, I'll shoot myself:
raise pf. bet the flop. bet the turn. bet the river.

Ok, I've understood.

What should I do if the preflop raiser reraises (considering I've raised preflop) and check the flop/bet the flop.

Thank you.

[nomadtla]

Situation 1
If the preflop raiser 3 bets you preflop then I
Flop - check/call
Once we've hit a hand on the turn go WA/WB check/call turn, bet/fold river.

Situation 2
The PFR cold calls and raises you on the flop
Flop - Bet/call
Turn - check/call
River bet/fold

So essentailly take the Way Ahead/Way Behind line in both situations. Fold the turn UI in both situations, unless you get more outs by another club on the turn, but that is improving so like I said fold UI on the turn.

Ok thanks.
The preflop raiser actually had AA and slowplayed them to the river -_-

[nomadtla]

As you should know what he had is irrelevant. I'd still keep those lines. Now if only I could play that well. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I know its irrelevant but I couldnt end that topic without saying what vilain had /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[kiemo]

Villian is a very bad player. He let 2 people draw super cheap on a pretry good draw board.

You played the hand fine. Raising KQo in EP is a very debatable issue and the EV difference of calling vs raising is probably insignificant for most players at this level. And this hand plays no different if you do raise, becuase villian is going to 3 bet probably and check through the flop again and you are right back in the same situation as when you called.

[McGahee]

[ QUOTE ]
Villian is a very bad player. He let 2 people draw super cheap on a pretry good draw board.

You played the hand fine. Raising KQo in EP is a very debatable issue and the EV difference of calling vs raising is probably insignificant for most players at this level. And this hand plays no different if you do raise, becuase villian is going to 3 bet probably and check through the flop again and you are right back in the same situation as when you called.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank God for some sanity. Who the [censored] gives a [censored] about PF.