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View Full Version : [3/6] Is there such a thing as a "donk-check"?

Xhad
12-10-2005, 04:19 AM
Villain is complete stranger. What kind of hand should I put this guy on? I was pretty much acting out of confusion from the turn on.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP1 (Villain)/ calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, BB calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 (Villain)/ calls.

Flop: (8.33 SB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG+2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Villain bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB folds, UTG+2 folds, <font color="#CC3333">Villain 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (7.16 BB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Villain checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Villain raises</font>, Hero calls.

River: (11.16 BB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Villain checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 11.16 BB
12-10-2005, 04:21 AM
this is fine
xwillience
12-10-2005, 04:26 AM
i like how you played it. Does he have AA? that or Q8o.
Harv72b
12-10-2005, 05:30 AM
His turn bluff/semibluff didn't work, hence the river check. I don't see how he could be scared enough of you holding a 4 or hitting the runner runner flush to check/call a better hand than your QJ.

This might be partially influenced by a slew of bad players I ran up against tonight, but I actually think you have a value bet on the river. He could very easily talk himself into calling a bet with 77 or A5 or whatever he decided to take a shot on the turn with.
Xhad
12-10-2005, 12:31 PM
[ QUOTE ]
He could very easily talk himself into calling a bet with 77 or A5 or whatever he decided to take a shot on the turn with.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very, very, close. Villain had A /images/graemlins/club.gif 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif.
12-10-2005, 12:38 PM
I have a question about the preflop play of this hand.

Is the raise correct? I would also like to know why this raise is correct? I know this hand plays well multiway / with position but here we don't have enough players to have a large equity edge? Don't we want to entice more players to come into this pot or is this a standard play?

True
damaniac
12-10-2005, 12:55 PM
There are a number of reasons to raise here:
1) We might get the button.
2) We might get checked to on many flops; when we completely miss and its say 4-way or we have a weak draw, we might like that free card.
3) A lot of the hands we are going to flop will win even against large fields. Raising preflop ties players to the pot.
4) Even should we flop top pair, say, unless someone has exactly AK they will only have 3 outs to an overcard, which they will still not be correct to chase, so we are still able to protect our top pair hands against some of our opponents' holdings.
5) We can often take it down uncontested on the flop when everyone misses. For example, if the flop comes Axx and no one has an A, we can often win right there. Without raising and keeping the pot somewhat shorthanded as well as showing strength, this may not be possible.
6) We still have an equity edge. A lot of the hands that "beat us" (A/Kx, little pairs), may not get to see the river UI if we are aggressive, so we win more pots.
12-10-2005, 01:02 PM
Thank you sir, so this raise is more to promote strength and other raising attributes than to add value?

If we were in the button and there were 2 limpers before us, would we still raise? Or is this now a call as we already have absolute position and would like to entice SB / BB to play?

True
damaniac
12-10-2005, 01:07 PM
Well, we still probably have an equity edge, and if the SB/BB are loose they may well call anyway. I'm not about to Pokerstove the hand ranges of two unknown LP limpers, but you probably have an equity edge anyway. Those side benefits I mentioned are nice, but you still want to be at least EV neutral and probably have an expected edge, even if slight, before raising a lot of times. Your equity is still probably the most important consideration.
Xhad
12-10-2005, 01:08 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I have a question about the preflop play of this hand.

Is the raise correct? I would also like to know why this raise is correct? I know this hand plays well multiway / with position but here we don't have enough players to have a large equity edge?

[/ QUOTE ]

If I get a bunch of cold-callers I probably have an equity edge. If I don't get a bunch of cold-callers, I have increased the chances that I will win with just top pair as I don't expect people to limp with hands that dominate me very often.

Another concern in this specific hand is that it may buy me the button, which as pointed out above may result in my getting cheap cards or showdowns if I want them. Finally, with my position being so late the value of going for overlimps decreases as there aren't that many people left to act.
Xhad
12-10-2005, 01:11 PM
[ QUOTE ]
If we were in the button and there were 2 limpers before us, would we still raise? Or is this now a call as we already have absolute position and would like to entice SB / BB to play?

[/ QUOTE ]

I still typically raise in this situation unless the limpers are the toughest players at the table. Preflop initiative counts for a lot in shorthanded situations.

I don't need to entice the blinds to play because often their forced money does that for me. BBs who overdefend are pretty common.
12-10-2005, 01:13 PM
Thank you, I like the way you played this. He c/r both streets, he may have also improved his hand to a spade flush draw on the turn. Seems like a tricky opponent.

If he c/r you on the river after betting its a fold due to the flush?

I would hate that, I would probably be weak and just check. I am not sure what the best play is.
Xhad
12-10-2005, 01:19 PM
I was not afraid of a flush. I didn't know what to think after the turn c/r, but if someone 3bets the flop with a backdoor flush draw I'm paying it off.

As of the turn check, I put him on some PP below jacks. The turn c/r confused me so much I just took the showdown.
Dhani
12-10-2005, 06:51 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I have a question about the preflop play of this hand.

Is the raise correct? I would also like to know why this raise is correct? I know this hand plays well multiway / with position but here we don't have enough players to have a large equity edge? Don't we want to entice more players to come into this pot or is this a standard play?

True

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree
Xhad
12-11-2005, 01:05 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have a question about the preflop play of this hand.

Is the raise correct? I would also like to know why this raise is correct? I know this hand plays well multiway / with position but here we don't have enough players to have a large equity edge? Don't we want to entice more players to come into this pot or is this a standard play?

True

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree



(notice how useful that was? As in not at all?)