Recommended Table Image for Different Games

[gte910h]

Just finished Inside the Poker Mind, and in the image section, Feenly says that:

Caro recommends a playful, loose image for stud and draw,
While Malmuth and Skalansky recomments a tight aggressive image for holdem.

I was wondering:
1. Why does a playful image help in stud?
2. What works well in Omaha8, and Lowball?

Any thoughts anybody?

[Louie Landale]

Playful image is great when the pot is small when compared to the size of the bet, since it encourages loose calls. That's draw poker and no-limit and pot-limit.

Serious, tight, unimaginative image is great when the pot is large compared to the size of the bet since that encourages folds, allowing successful semi-bluffs on later streets: nothing quite like getting the weak kicker to fold the turn when you have a draw. That's worth more than getting the opponent to call with KT when you raise early.

I was not aware that Caro recomends the playful image for Stud. If so, he's wrong. The pot gets quite big quite quickly and pretty much most bets are with the hopes the opponent folds. "Playful" may help in the lowest limit 1-5 games since nobody is getting the right odds to call a reasonable raise.

Omaha and razz should be more like stud and holdem: big pots compared to bet size.

What you REALLY want is to cultivate a loose image on early rounds and a tight image on later rounds: get him to call a raise with KT, go to the river when he flops a pair, then throws it away for one more bet. I love it when that happens.

- Louie

[gte910h]

I'm not sure Caro said stud. I read it last night then posted the comment from work in the morning. I may be wrong. I will look at that again.

When you say "What you REALLY want is to cultivate a loose image on early rounds and a tight image on later rounds: get him to call a raise with KT, go to the river when he flops a pair, then throws it away for one more bet. I love it when that happens," are you talking about all board games, Omaha and Stud, or Holdem?

Thanks for the principle. It really clears things up for me.

I know I have the loose-tight-tight-tight image at least in the minds of a couple players at my normal game (I heard "Aloud Hand Reader Guy" talking about me when I was at a home game and in the bathroom. He and another guy we're talking about their often total misreads of me after I made a guy fold his better hand in 08).

[rkiray]

In Poker Essays Vol. II Mason states that Image is not important in O8. He claims the only skills that matter in that game are hand selection, hand reading, and reading tells. This is better than Omaha Hi where he claims the only skill that matters is hand selection.

[Louie Landale]

The desirable "loose-to-tight" image is for multi-betting-round games; the pot is relatively small early (a loose image is good) but the pot gets relatively big late (a tight image is good).

[gambelero2]

It depends on how you play. If you play loose and sloppy, you are going to lose no matter what image you have. Most players play so bad that image, reading books, etc. are a waste of time.

Assuming that you play fairly well, you want to project an image different from actuality. If you play very tight pre-flop and agressive, you do not want to let people know that you'll throw away Ah3h59 or KQsuited if the pot is jammed. My problem in O8 is that the game is so loose, that anything without an A2 is a poor value if they're jamming the pot preflop. Being able to put you on A2 every time you come in a pot gives the other players too much of an advantage in playing against you. Similarly, coming in only with the top forty hands (AK, AA, KK, GG, JJ) after the pot is jammed ahead of you means that you will call a jammed pot cold only one time in 33.75. You need to recover a lot of blind money to compensate.

[Al Mirpuri]

In Caro's Fundamental Secrets Of Winning Poker, he points out that having an image matching your actual play is damaging. Tight players benefit when they are thought of as loose as they pick up calls they should not. Loose players benefit when they are thought of as tight as they get folds that give them the pot.

In Poker Essays Volume II Mason Malmuth makes image recommendations for various games. Check this out if you can.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Louie:

You wrote:

I was not aware that Caro recomends the playful image for Stud. If so, he's wrong.

I agree completely for the reasons you give. A loose playful image in stud is very wrong.

By the way, a looser image does work in razz. Most razz games have a smaller ante structure than stud and the hands are much more transparent leading to smaller pots.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi G2:

You wrote:

Assuming that you play fairly well, you want to project an image different from actuality.

I don't quite agree with this. For example, in limit hold 'em you want your opponents to think that you are very tight and never bluff (or semi-bluff). In reality you want to be tight and occasionally bluff and semi-bluff. Do you see the difference?

best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Al:

You wrote:

In Caro's Fundamental Secrets Of Winning Poker, he points out that having an image matching your actual play is damaging. Tight players benefit when they are thought of as loose as they pick up calls they should not. Loose players benefit when they are thought of as tight as they get folds that give them the pot.

I disagree with Caro and view this as terrible advice. It might sound good and it's appealing, but real poker just doesn't work that way.

In games where the pot gets large relative to the bet playing tight and being perceived as tight is highly advantageous. However, there is a difference between someone who plays in a tight passive style and someone who plays tight but also plays very well.

best wishes,
mason

[gambelero2]

Another possible exception is hi-lo split declare. Here playing tight and being perceived as tight may work to your advantage as players who are going your way quit the pot.

If anyone still plays this game.

[thomastem]

My tiny limited experience in low limit $2-$4 "No Fold'em Hold'em" I have made a profit in pushing the image that I am loose when I am tight. I believe that in this kind of game a tight image only chases fish away but does not get them to fold with 2nd pair when a 4 flush and open ended straight are also showing. Hell pocket 2s will showdown with no improvement.

I'm sorry but the loose games online now don't favor the tight image in my opinion. But the again I'm just a goof ball, what do I know?

[gte910h]

I feel there is something different there too...but I decided to stop with the online ring games for awhile, and work on my RL playskills.

[Al Mirpuri]

[ QUOTE ]
In games where the pot gets large relative to the bet playing tight and being perceived as tight is highly advantageous. However, there is a difference between someone who plays in a tight passive style and someone who plays tight but also plays very well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would the reverse also hold true? Pots that are small in comparison to the bet allow for a loose image in order to encourage weak calls.

[J_V]

I don't buy that people ever fold anything of value. They never fold real hands just absolute crap (and I play high limits) And if you want to push someone off nothing it doesn't matter what image you have, you can't call with no pair against anybody. But people will pay off perceived loose players with nearly nothing, while they may not pay a tight player off. But they still won't fold top pair for anyone ever. Or maybe I just can't make the tight image work - that's a real possibilty. The loose one is working just fine however.

[Al Mirpuri]

I think what you have written has great validity - the difference perhaps between theory and practice?

[rkiray]

I think online it's harder to get an image that works but it can be done. Online if you are preceived as tight and passive there are many players who will run you over. This is not good. But a tight and aggresive image works well against the most aggressive players (those who tend to try to run people over). Liberal check raising seems to be the best way to achieve this image. Also raising alot helps.

[cero_z]

Hi JV,
I disagree with you that people "won't fold top pair, ever," though I know that you don't actually mean "never", but hardly ever. Still, I disagree when it comes to 20-40 through 40-80 (the highest I play); one must make folds on par with top pair/weak kicker with some regularity in order to win a BB / hour or so in these games (IMO). Except possibly in loose internet games, you are playing too loose if you do this (always pay off), or if your image never forces someone else to fold top pair incorrectly.