Playing OverCards vs an Unknown (Maybe Boring)

[toss]

10/20 Full Ring

MP2 (my notes say he is a loose caller) raises, I 3-bet with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ/images/graemlins/club.gif, BB (who is way too loose PF sometimes LAG postflop) calls, MP2 calls. 3 to the flop for 3 SBs each plus the small blind minus rake.

Flop is 399 with two diamonds. BB checks, MP2 bets, I wish I had better notes.

[CardSharpCook]

I often see this with 55-88. They don't fold. I call the flop bet and fold turn UI. Raising here results in getting 3bet and bet into on the turn in my experience (at 20/40).

[tribefan9]

I don't think you are going to get three bet on the flop since you three bet pre-flop. I raise to try and knock out BB and go for the free card.

Yea I agree with what both have previously said. I think that the better play is get out either on the flop or on the turn unimproved, I even lean towards the flop because we don't have good notes yet which I think is key. I mean we coudl really overstep here and get ourselves in trouble depending on how good/bad loose/passive this person is. ALso if he is a terrible player and we get unlucky and our up against ace king as we will sometimes be and he bets we raise he calls the turn and we either hit our ace there or we hit it on the river could be bad.... (but then again if he has ace jack it's great for us) this is why I think I would perfer to have more miticulous notes. -ANdrew

[CardSharpCook]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think you are going to get three bet on the flop since you three bet pre-flop. I raise to try and knock out BB and go for the free card.

[/ QUOTE ]

Was thinking about this.. I think it is a difference btwn 10/20 and 20/40. On 20/40 playes easily identify a raise here for what it truly is (overcards trying to get a freebee) and will often 3bet PPs. On 10/20, I think you get more respect.

You said your post may be boring. I think frustrating is the better word. It is frustrating becuz without a read, any advice anyone is telling you in this hand is like shooting in the dark. Is it better to raise the flop? or just call? This is difficult to say. Is there a standard play here with no reads on the villain. Well given the fact that you are in a 3 handed raised pot, if youre gonna call the flop bet, I think you are better off investing another flop bet and raising this flop in an attempt force the other guy out of the hand and give you more strategic flexibility on the turn. If the villain 3 bets however you will wish you never tried this strategy, or if the player behind you coldcalls your flop raise, your play is also ruined and you should give up on the turn unimproved. Another reason I think raising is better than calling is there is still a small chance you have the best hand(this small chance is important IMO) and the other times you are trailing you will usually have 6 outs. In specifically 3 handed raised pot situations, if someone directly to your right bets and you have a calling hand, you are usually better off raising IMO

[tribefan9]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think you are going to get three bet on the flop since you three bet pre-flop. I raise to try and knock out BB and go for the free card.

[/ QUOTE ]

Was thinking about this.. I think it is a difference btwn 10/20 and 20/40. On 20/40 playes easily identify a raise here for what it truly is (overcards trying to get a freebee) and will often 3bet PPs. On 10/20, I think you get more respect.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree somewhat with what you are saying, but my feeling, without data to back it up is that this is still profitable to go for the free card on the 20/40. I think if it was a 30/60 hand it would change my answer. I think in the 10/20 and 20/40, players will still try and get too fancy with the smaller pairs and go for a raise on the turn if a scare card does not hit.

[toss]

I really didn't know what to do either so I raised it up. I figured a backdoor flush draw plus 2 overcards will make it worth it enough for a possible free card and knocking out the third player. If the flop bettor has AK he would have been more likely to cap preflop. If he has AQ/AJ, the flop raise is good. If he has a smaller pair I have a good amount of outs.

BB folded to the flop 3-bet. The turn came an ace. Check, I bet, he folds.