clarkmeistering the turn?

[tyler_cracker]

This hand comes out of my mutual sweating session with A_K. We met in the coach exchange thread! It was a lot of fun. A_K is a set flopping *machine*, and he didn't berate me after i limped QTo in MP3 after 3 limpers.

Villain is 50/3/0.45 over 100 hands. He is a donkey. He has donked the river twice against me, once with UI A6s after i raised preflop and lead the whole way.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, Button folds, SB folds.

<font color="blue">No idea who might bet or where the bet would come from, so a check/raise is out. Leading is the next best thing, right? Or should i just check and observe the action and re-evaluate?</font>

Turn: (4 BB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, Hero folds.

Villain had the "raise any" box checked (or has a super fast index finger). A standard Clarkmeister is to do this on the river, but i thought a lot of the advantages are available here on the turn: I have some fold equity, i don't get raised by a worse hand (though i contemplated calling because of his donkiness and the fishy autoraise situation), plus i might have the best hand.

More importantly, i had no idea what i would do if i checked and he bet. Just give up?

Also, how are you proceeding if he just calls and the river is a blank. Do i check and hope he checks behind or that i induce a bluff? Check/fold? Bet again (this pretty clearly sucks, as worse hands aren't calling but better hands aren't folding).

Villain raises turn with four to the flush. And all you have is top pair, no kicker. The bet is fine, because I think a check by you almost guarantees a bet/bluff, which you can't really call. But I agree that the bet is done with the intention of folding to a raise.

[Slim Pickens]

Folding to the raise is perfectly fine. Do you seriously think a donkey will have the sophistication to use the autoraise button to bluff you? A better line might be to check-raise and fold to a 3-bet. Oh wait, you only use that strategy against rocks, not donkeys.

I have a habit of often check-raising top pairs out of the blinds on the flop in multiway pots, but I'd think people are less likely to bet at a highly coordinated board, so the lead is probably more appropriate.

[ajm36]

nh

i check/fold the flop, your hand is terrible.

[A_K]

For what its worth, I advocated check/folding the turn. There is an awfully good chance that villan has a heart in his hand, and given his donkish nature, I don't see him laying down even a little flush to our bet.

But I prefer to wait until the next hand a flop a set. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
i check/fold the flop, your hand is terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

[MN_Mime]

It's a difficult hand to play, but I can't Pokerstove anything reasonable that shows he doesn't have the equity to bet this flop. Against villain headsup, he's a 3:2 favorite, but after the turn he's at best a 2:1 dog with a good chance he's drawing dead.

In MP2s shoes, how would you play A/images/graemlins/club.gif 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif against hero (and the rest of the field)?

[Fantam]

[ QUOTE ]
It's a difficult hand to play, but I can't Pokerstove anything reasonable that shows he doesn't have the equity to bet this flop. Against villain headsup, he's a 3:2 favorite, but after the turn he's at best a 2:1 dog with a good chance he's drawing dead.

In MP2s shoes, how would you play A/images/graemlins/club.gif 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif against hero (and the rest of the field)?

[/ QUOTE ]

If I was MP2, I would have folded A /images/graemlins/club.gif9 /images/graemlins/club.gif to the flop bet.

Anyway, I agree with the suggestion that OP should have check/folded the flop.

6 players saw that flop, and it was very likely that one or more of them had a decent flush draw. It was even possible that someone already had the made flush.

By checking the flop, the OP would be in a better position if the flop got checked through. Then he would be able to wait and see if a blank fell on the turn.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i check/fold the flop, your hand is terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

[MN_Mime]

All that means is that they are correct to call down with their 4-flush. You're still the favorite with top pair (2:1 that the flush doesn't come). In the mean time, you're not extracting value from middle pairs and other missed hands.

I think it's weak to give up TP on monotone flops. What's your cutoff for betting this hand and why is it significantly better than OP's Q4o here?

[MN_Mime]

You're also probably not 50 VPIP. Work with me here... /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Slim Pickens]

[ QUOTE ]
i check/fold the flop, your hand is terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get it. You're putting in one bet to win six with a decent chance everyone will fold to your bet because the board is scary. Even against a flush draw, you're still a 2:1 favorite. The only thing you don't want to face is another queen, which won't take much from you on this board. I may not know a whole lot about this "limit" poker stuff, but this seems like a perfect place to pick up a small pot about 1/2 the time for one bet.

[MN_Mime]

I assume you fold to a raise? There are some opponents against whom I'd raise in MP/LP with any two here.

I agree that a bet is in order, but I think the reservation is that it's a real hard hand to *play* out-of-position against resistance (and calling is resistance enough).

[Slim Pickens]

A call can really mean anything on that flop, and I can't say I fault anyone for wanting to check/fold the turn rather than bet/fold. I think the turn bet/fold is a better line with the fourth flush card falling, but if you want to chicken out, fine.

The check/fold line on the flop is the one I don't get. One of your opponents has to be much more sophisticated than the typical low-limit player to raise with any two representing a made hand they don't have. It is very easy to fold to a raise on the flop. It is very easy to fold to a raise on the turn. Your opponents are unlikely to just call you down on that board.

[MN_Mime]

Well, I don't get it either but some of those guys talk a better game than *I* play so there's probably something to it.

I suspect that it's just a multi-tabling concession. It's such a difficult spot to play (reads and analysis for which we've had several days luxury to look at) that it's probably superior to pick a better spot and look for more ABC hands on which to make your money. Why put yourself in this position when there are so many other spots where people are just trying to give money away?

I hate money, I guess. I bet this flop. I need a read to determine my later action and I probably check/fold the turn without one.