15, straight out of HPFAP?, 3 way, for overcall

[CanKid]

I don't know Mp1, figured he had me smoked or was drawing to 3-5 outs. Player behind me is generally straight forward but far too loose against raises preflop. I thought it was likely I had him dominated vs. JT/QT after the flop action.

I didn't see a reason in raising the turn or the river. Agree/Disagree?

Thanks






Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (6 max, 9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif. CO posts a blind of $15.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, CO (poster) calls, Button calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls.

Flop: (9.66 SB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, CO folds, Button calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (7.83 BB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero calls, Button calls.

River: (10.83 BB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero calls, Button calls.

Final Pot: 13.83 BB

[rbenuck4]

seems standard

[CardSharpCook]

[ QUOTE ]
seems standard

[/ QUOTE ] Perhaps, but every single street is borderline +EV. PF can be a fold/call/raise, doesn't matter much in EV. Flop can be a fold/call/raise, though I think raise is best. Turn is a fold/call, and I think folding might actually be best. River is a call now that we got this far.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
seems standard

[/ QUOTE ] Perhaps, but every single street is borderline +EV. PF can be a fold/call/raise, doesn't matter much in EV. Flop can be a fold/call/raise, though I think raise is best. Turn is a fold/call, and I think folding might actually be best. River is a call now that we got this far.

[/ QUOTE ]
On the turn since there was a player behind the hero, I felt the hero shouldve either raised with the intention of folding to a 3 bet, or fold. With no read on the villain, it is hard to say which line is better. I think with no read I would raise the turn, since most players go for the checkraise in this spot when they have a strong hand, plus raising puts the most pressure on the guy behind the hero which protects our hand the times it is good.
If I were heads up with the villain, with no read I would then just call down on the turn.

[CardSharpCook]

except that with a 4 card str8 on the board, he can't depend on you to bet JJ anymore. I like tossing here because you could easily be drawing dead to a split pot, player behind you could easily be raising, player in front has shown open-aggression on 2 streets, despite resistance. Also, this board is made for 2pair hands. Given your position, holding, and aggression of others, I toss the turn. Raising seems suicidal.

[ QUOTE ]
except that with a 4 card str8 on the board, he can't depend on you to bet JJ anymore. I like tossing here because you could easily be drawing dead to a split pot, player behind you could easily be raising, player in front has shown open-aggression on 2 streets, despite resistance. Also, this board is made for 2pair hands. Given your position, holding, and aggression of others, I toss the turn. Raising seems suicidal.

[/ QUOTE ]
You may be right, Ive played with so many retarded people lately, that I just assume theres a good chance the hero is still ahead here. I still think that raising is better than calling becuz of the other guy in the hand. And raising is not really suicidal since the hero can easily fold to a 3 bet IMO. The call down strategy invest 2BB's but never protects the hero's hand, by raising the turn the hero can make the same 2BB investment and also protect his hand the times he's still ahead. With no read, I see nothing wrong with folding here, and I also see nothing wrong with raising, but I hate the call down strategy unless its heads up.

[lil feller]

Wouldn't the presence of the 3rd player be more of a reason to just call? Raising the turn lets him correctly fold JT, QT and other hands, and will only be called if Hero is behind. Hero has no outs to clean up that might be in the 3rd players hand either. I'm not sure why you'd advocate a raise here.

lf

[CardSharpCook]

I agree with Lil. You fold out hands that you beat and that have up to 5 outs (A8,JT,etc) and you get calls from 2pair hands. You may fold out AT though. If anything, you get a call behind, you can check/fold the river. This is one of the times where I'd rather not know. If 3rd player has me beat, I'm putting in 2 bets. If 3rd player loses to me, I'm putting in 2 bets. I put in 2bets no matter what, but at least I don't know that I am beat on the turn (and more to the point, villian is putting in 2bets too). Not sure if you can follow that. But it is along the same lines as the "as if" theory. You play the hand "as if" your hand is good despite having doubts. If that sounds bad, I could give an exampled explanation.

Still, I'm folding the turn for my earlier reasons. I once had a brief trist with K/images/graemlins/heart.gifT/images/graemlins/heart.gif. But that's over now. I see her for the trash she is.

[ QUOTE ]
Wouldn't the presence of the 3rd player be more of a reason to just call? Raising the turn lets him correctly fold JT, QT and other hands, and will only be called if Hero is behind. Hero has no outs to clean up that might be in the 3rd players hand either. I'm not sure why you'd advocate a raise here.

lf

[/ QUOTE ]
I believe if the hero is set on continuing in this hand raising is better than calling. By raising, the hero can protect his hand the times the Button has a 5 outer, gutshot draw or even two overcards. Notice if the button has any of these hands he will be able to call one turn bet profitably but not two, and this is why the hero must raise IMO. Since the button has done nothing but call so far in this hand, his holding is not defined, and he can have many hands the hero wants to fold.

By the way, Im not really advocating a raise here, but I do strongly believe that raising is better than calling precisely becuz of the 3rd player in this hand. I think the turn is very close between raising and folding, and with no read I would probably raise, but if somone else would fold here, I cannot disagree with that, both plays are close IMO. But calling is clearly wrong IMO. If it was Heads ups, calling would be fine, but when the hero has a vulnerable hand like top pair on a ten high flop with a player behind him he cant just call and let all kinds of hands draw profitably against him.

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with Lil. You fold out hands that you beat and that have up to 5 outs (A8,JT,etc) and you get calls from 2pair hands. You may fold out AT though. If anything, you get a call behind, you can check/fold the river. This is one of the times where I'd rather not know. If 3rd player has me beat, I'm putting in 2 bets. If 3rd player loses to me, I'm putting in 2 bets. I put in 2bets no matter what, but at least I don't know that I am beat on the turn (and more to the point, villian is putting in 2bets too). Not sure if you can follow that. But it is along the same lines as the "as if" theory. You play the hand "as if" your hand is good despite having doubts. If that sounds bad, I could give an exampled explanation.

Still, I'm folding the turn for my earlier reasons. I once had a brief trist with K/images/graemlins/heart.gifT/images/graemlins/heart.gif. But that's over now. I see her for the trash she is.

[/ QUOTE ]
There are so many more hands that can call profitably here for one bet, that the hero should never be concerned with possibly inducing the button to make a correct fold, what's most important is making sure the button doesnt make a correct call. Im not sure whats better: fold or raising, but I believe folding is much better than calling, and raising is much better than calling.

[CardSharpCook]

that's fair. With 10BBs in the pot, villian need 4outs to correctly fall. Considering that he has 3-4 outs to a split pot, a raise here is best (fold to a 3bet). However, I'm sure as hell checking behind on the river. My line is still fold the turn, but second best is raise the turn, check the river.

[DpR]

[ QUOTE ]
that's fair. With 10BBs in the pot, villian need 4outs to correctly fall. Considering that he has 3-4 outs to a split pot, a raise here is best (fold to a 3bet). However, I'm sure as hell checking behind on the river. My line is still fold the turn, but second best is raise the turn, check the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you raise the turn, are not 3 bet, and it is HU, I think you have a value bet on this river .

[lil feller]

I think I missed the 10bb in the pot already. Given the pot is already that big, I'm recinding my comments and agreeing w/ Wes. Provided, of course, that we'll only get 3bet if we're drawing dead to a split.

lf

[CardSharpCook]

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If you raise the turn, are not 3 bet, and it is HU, I think you have a value bet on this river .

[/ QUOTE ]

Says who? A raise here says, "I have a 9!!!" and shuts down all other hands that are very likely here. Two pair and trips revert into call down mode. JJ/AT do the same.

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If you raise the turn, are not 3 bet, and it is HU, I think you have a value bet on this river .

[/ QUOTE ]

Says who? A raise here says, "I have a 9!!!" and shuts down all other hands that are very likely here. Two pair and trips revert into call down mode. JJ/AT do the same.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with this statement, if the hero raises the turn, this should usually be his final investment in the hand.