How do you play this on the river?

[ECondreras]

I have problems when the following situation occurs:

I am in early position and I am betting top pair, top/decent kicker. I control the betting the whole way and don't try to check raise for fear of giving a free card to the low limit calling stations in the hand with me. Now, on the river, a card (other than the top one) pairs. Do I bet and fold to a raise? Do I check and call a bet? Is one better than the other?

I have the same question when I am leading the betting and the flush card hits on the river. Should you just check and call at that point?

[Dynasty]

If you always bet when the board pairs, you will make a profit in the long run. The same is probably true when flush cards hit.

[Bob T.]

Betting has to be right in both situations. Whether or not you call a raise is player dependent.

I tend to pay off bad players and good players, and fold to average players. I figure the money that I lose to bad players is a loan, and good players might be making a play against me, but against the average players, it is probably safe to fold.

[JTG51]

In general, I'd bet the majority of the time on both situations. I'd be much more likely to check against an opponent who would bet the river as a bluff.

As to paying off a raise, you've got to know something about the opponent to make that decision. I'd call against an unknown opponent. I try to save river folds for opponents that I know well.

[anatta]

With just one opponent, I tend to bet and call the raise, unless I am against a player incapable of making a move. With two players, I still probably bet, but I am much more likely to fold, unless the player really likes to make moves.

Deciding whether to bet on the end when the scare card comes is also largely a function of the number of players I am up against and just how scary the card is. In general, strain to make that value bet.

[Joe Tall]

I most definately bet out.

If I get raised it depends on who the raiser is what my next action becomes. Such that, some Passive-rock-who suddenly brusts out, I fold. Some tricky, shifty-player, I would most likely call.

I found it interesting that players' normal tendencies when a flush card or a 4th card of the same suit hits the board, is to automatically check even when leading the betting all the way from early position regardless of previous actions. As you stated, this is player-dependent and probably situation-dependent too. If it is a multi-way pot, my inclination is to check but if it is a 2-3 man confrontation I would be more in favor of betting out especially if the board consist of cards in the higher playing zone. By using your initial aggression you may bluff your way out on the river if reasonable opponents are holding a singleton medium card.
Heck, I hate to dance around this "it depends" situations. /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

[ECondreras]

For a while now, I have been betting the river in these situations. But the last 3 times that I have been faced with it, I have bet and been raised. These have been in low limit Party games with several people still in at the river. Twice I called the raise and lost, the third time I folded when someone called the raise first (the raiser did indeed make his hand). That's what got me thinking that a check call costs me one bet instead of two when I'm beat. Conversely, if it gets checked through and my hand is good, there might have been a few that would have called with a worse hand, thus costing me money.

Anyway, that's why I made the post - to see what others thought.

On a similiar note, let's say you are in the same situation, but you are either in late position or last to act. People have been checking and calling your bets the whole way and that scare cards hits. Now it is checked to you. Almost every time I check it through. I do believe that there are some that will call that last bet with a worse hand, but most of the players I see in my games will wait for this one situation to break out the check raise. Is this wrong to check it through unless you are 101% sure you have the best hand?

[gunboat]

Many of the posters recommend a bet, folding to a raise under some circumstances, paying off under others. While I believe this would be correct for higher limit games, I do not think it is positive EV in many circumstances in low limit games. I have found that when someone comes to life on the river, they pretty much always have top pair beat. With so many low limit players seeing the flop with any connectors, 1 gappers and any 2-suited, you have to respect river bets when a flush or straight is possible. With so many sticking around with any piece of the flop, trips are a real possibility when the board pairs, especially against several opponents.

So for lower limits, I adjust my value bets on the river in this situation.

If it was the turn card that paired, bet.

If there was no flush draw on the flop, bet.

If the bottom card on the flop paired, bet except perhaps against several opponents. This is a tricky one and is very board and opponent dependant.

If the opponent usually shows decent starting hands but is notorious for slow playing big hands, I will check and call. Waiting for the river to raise a set seems to be very common at low limits.

There are two times I will call the river raise. 1) If I have a note that the opponent is capable of a bluff raise. or 2) If I have previously folded to a couple of river bets or raises after leading the betting and the opponent seems to be a decent player who observed this.

One last thing. I will also adjust according to pre-flop betting. If the opponent raises pre-flop or cold called (and I don't have a read on looseness) I will probably bet. This often indicates a pocket pair and LL players just can't seem to get away from them if there is only one overcard (or even two).

[mts]

I would think it would be the opposite.
Checking and calling is the play i usually make.
checking usually induces a bluff and if they made the hand you'll only lose 1 bet (by calling). i think i should change my strategy.

[Ed Miller]

Almost every time I check it through. I do believe that there are some that will call that last bet with a worse hand, but most of the players I see in my games will wait for this one situation to break out the check raise. Is this wrong to check it through unless you are 101% sure you have the best hand?

I almost always bet. In fact, I have this horrible tendency to bet when checked to if I have any kind of decent hand. I think that horrible tendency alone has made me several thousand dollars in the past six months.

[Ed Miller]

i think i should change my strategy.

I think you should too. Dynasty is 100% right here.

[Ed Miller]

I bet the river more often against loose, bad players, not less. Try it... you'll like it. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

[Louie Landale]

Yes, you cannot put the weak player on a hand and he can just as easily have made trip 222s as he can have top pair. However, there are still LOTS of bad hands he can have that he'll call with that you can beat.

Betting and folding is almost always better unless he's a habitual bluffer: players generally and rightfully call with more hands then they'd bet.

You can tend to check if you have good reason to belive he HAS that pair, or if you think he's on a draw, or he won't pay you off, or there are several players in.

But if you've got the apparent best hand on the turn routinely bet the river.

- Louie

[Michael Davis]

I don't think we're discussing hands when the 4th card of a suit hits the board. If this is what you are considering, you obviously have no problems betting when the 3rd flush card hits, which is good.

Notice that when this happens, it is more difficult for your opponents to call your bet with weak hands as there are now many more hands that beat them.

Betting when the fourth card of a suit hits against more than one opponent is almost always wrong if you have a hand that can beat some legitimate hands they might have.

-Mike

[bernie]

one good reason was stated in a different thread (i think).

some will check the turn with a made hand in front of you, but they may fear it being checked through on the river so theyll usually bet out instead of missing bets on the end. though some will go for the c/r (and those players stand out a little as you dont see too many c/r on the river because of this)

when the table checks on the end go ahead and bet with a decent hand. youd be suprised at how often it's good.

b

[ECondreras]

Well, it didn't take long for me to try out the suggestions.

I am UTG+2 with A /forums/images/icons/spade.gif 9 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif
UTG and UTG+1 limp in and I limp as well. Next 2 fold, call, button calls, SB completes and BB checks. 7 to see the flop:

3 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif 9 /forums/images/icons/club.gif 4 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif

Checked to the player before me who bets and I immediately raise with top pair and the ace. Folds all to the BB who cold calls. UTG folds and original bettor calls. 3 to the turn.

6 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif

Straight is possible, but I still feel my hand is good.

Checked to me, I bet, both call.

River: 4 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif

OK, remember what they said on 2+2, Ed. Don't be a wimp.

Checked to me, I bet, BB raises, folded back to me and I call.

BB shows K /forums/images/icons/heart.gif 4 /forums/images/icons/club.gif for the set of 4's.

I am still trying to figure out why checking that hand through isn't the right play. If the BB did not improve her bottom pair, is she calling my bet? Hardly. So why bet?

[bernie]

a lesser 9 may call. A high may call. a mid pair or even a pair of 4s may call. lots of hands will call

it doesnt work everytime. id have played the hand the same. except, id consider the player raising me. if theyre unlikely to try a move here, you may be able to fold to the raise.

b

[CrackerZack]

If the BB did not improve her bottom pair, is she calling my bet? Hardly. So why bet?

Given your read is right, which is LL is questionable, he may very well call without improvement, but in either case, will the flop bettor call if it isn't 2 bets to him on the river? I'd say its probably around 80% he calls. Added to the fact that K4 will probably call at least 20% at LL without improvement if he'll call 2 cold with it on the flop. This bet is a money maker.