OK... I'm thouroughly confused.

[Woolygimp]

I'm confused as to why everyone has different definitions of the playstyles. TAG has almost become a word synonimous with bad play (nut peddling), poor post-flop play, and a person who can be bullied out of each and every pot.

Throughout my tenure at 2+2 TAG has always been the "premier" playstyle. A playstyle to ensure the highest earnings up until the highest level of play where players can adapt. Only then did players have to change the playstyle to counter their opponents.

Since when did TAG turn into the weak/tight, ineffective playstyle you guys portray it as?
I agree a Tight Aggressive player will be folding far too often in a 6max game, but this is a forum for full ring & 6 max.

I just want to know where all this misconception has come in, I don't think you guys realize what a LAG is.
A LAG is someone with a very large VPIP and PFR % who spews chips, I just don't see the correlation. In fact most of the plays I've seen posted are typical TAG plays.

So guys either set me straight or set the record straight cause i'm completely baffled.

(TAG is not nut peddling for the last time)

Edit: Does anyone know the exact range of PT stats to define each style of play, as thats something I can't argue against.

[Big_Jim]

[ QUOTE ]
TAG has almost become a word synonimous with bad play (nut peddling), poor post-flop play, and a person who can be bullied out of each and every pot.

[/ QUOTE ]
Uh... WTF?

Did you just make this up?

[Woolygimp]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
TAG has almost become a word synonimous with bad play (nut peddling), poor post-flop play, and a person who can be bullied out of each and every pot.

[/ QUOTE ]
Uh... WTF?

Did you just make this up?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, Don't tell anyone! /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Seriously it's the general impression i've gotten reading the NL forums.

[Big_Jim]

Honestly.. I have never, ever seen anybody say this.

[Ghazban]

I don't know what TAG is in NL; when I read it as a read on an opponent, I pretty much ignore it and hope the poster has given me more specific information.

LAG is better-defined. A LAG is loose and aggressive (duh). Loose and aggressive can win money in NL but its pretty high variance. Good LAGs are excellent postflop and know when to apply pressure to make their opponents fold and when to back off or conded the pot. They normally excel at hand reading and have no fear whatsoever.

Most LAGs at mid- and low-stakes are bad LAGs. They push too hard with too many marginal hands against the wrong players. They try to push calling stations off of top pair when they have nothing but a gutshot. They push hard too often and, as a result, don't have the folding equity they need for their plays to be +EV.

Loose and tight are both winning styles if played properly. Good LAGs (like Mahatma/Spirt Rock) are lionized for their play because its sexy and exciting to watch/play. Tight play can be equally profitable but its far less interesting to watch and discuss.

[Woolygimp]

I've probaly been screening through the SSNL forum far too often then, You'd be amazed at some of the bad advice floating around in there Jim.

[Mr. Curious]

Playing styles should only be used as an easy reminder as to how your opponents play and what your table image is at any given time. Don't get caught up in thinking that being any one style is something you should be trying to attain because you will end up costing yourself profits by making a "style" play, rather than the most profitable play for that hand in that position against those opponents.

[tdomeski]

Very few players have the hand reading skills to play an effective LAG style.

You can play TAG at levels like 2/4 and watch the money pile up so might as well if you don't plan to move way way up.

[Big_Jim]

The most important thing is that your playing style should change to fit with the game you're playing.

TAG play works better against a lot of loose/bad action junkies.

LAG works better against tight/weak players

TAG is not nut peddling... it's just waiting for better cards to play with. ie. Not playing every suited connector and one gapper you get on the button.

TAG play is typically easier, because you get yourself into a lot less marginal situations.

Here's an interesting post (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=plnlpoker&Number=3313830& Searchpage=1&Main=3313830&Words=running+game+ML4L& topic=&Search=true#Post3313830) from a while ago by ML4L.

[Mr. Curious]

[ QUOTE ]
The most important thing is that your playing style should change to fit with the game you're playing.

TAG play works better against a lot of loose/bad action junkies.

LAG works better against tight/weak players

TAG is not nut peddling... it's just waiting for better cards to play with. ie. Not playing every suited connector and one gapper you get on the button.

TAG play is typically easier, because you get yourself into a lot less marginal situations.

Here's an interesting post (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=plnlpoker&Number=3313830& Searchpage=1&Main=3313830&Words=running+game+ML4L& topic=&Search=true#Post3313830) from a while ago by ML4L.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good words of wisdom in both posts.

[pokerjoker]

I forgot where I read this but in any game the is an ideal way to play post flop and possibly an ideal way to play preflop. An elite poker player can switch between TAG and LAG as the situation demands.

If you can always have ur poker strategy summed up in 3 letters then chances are u aren't playing top of the line poker.

I determine preflop play by the chance villian will pay me if I hit/be out played..the higher it is the more hands I'll play.

It is all very situation dependant. Nut peddling meand bad poker player because he is unable to read opponents to see if they actually thave the nuts or not and most good opponents will be able to read him and stay away.

A bad lag who bluffs everypot can just as easily be countered against.

Poker is all about not being predictable/ being able to predict your opponents.

This is even true in low limit games but you can be a TAG Opponents won't pick up on your style anyway since it is impossible to be predictable when ur opponents arent' really even trying.

I hope this makes sense, this post was getting kinda long.

[yvesaint]

[ QUOTE ]
TAG has almost become a word synonimous with bad play (nut peddling), poor post-flop play, and a person who can be bullied out of each and every pot.


[/ QUOTE ]

man just cause some people (me) have been calilng YOU weak-tight doesnt mean im saying "TAG" play is nut peddling, poor post-flop play, or being bullied at all

[Leptyne]

One of problems at any forum like this is to figure out who knows what they're talking about. There is always room for a difference of opinion, but there are certain basics that I call NL 101. When you come to understand a lot of NL 101 its easy to pick up on who speaks (writes) sound fundamentals. Big Jim is an example of a poster (like ML4L) that knows and speaks the basics. Posters that want to argue about the fundamentals are to be ignored. Posts like that from ML4L are to be bookmarked, studied, analyzed and diagnosed. If you don't agree with one of these opinions then formulate a response, read it over, print a copy, study it, do it again the next morning, and make sure you have some foundation for your disagreement. If you disagree and have a solid case (see BobboFitos for examples) then we'd all look forward to hearing from you.

[Mr. Curious]

[ QUOTE ]
I forgot where I read this but in any game the is an ideal way to play post flop and possibly an ideal way to play preflop. An elite poker player can switch between TAG and LAG as the situation demands.

If you can always have ur poker strategy summed up in 3 letters then chances are u aren't playing top of the line poker.

I determine preflop play by the chance villian will pay me if I hit/be out played..the higher it is the more hands I'll play.

It is all very situation dependant. Nut peddling meand bad poker player because he is unable to read opponents to see if they actually thave the nuts or not and most good opponents will be able to read him and stay away.

A bad lag who bluffs everypot can just as easily be countered against.

Poker is all about not being predictable/ being able to predict your opponents.

This is even true in low limit games but you can be a TAG Opponents won't pick up on your style anyway since it is impossible to be predictable when ur opponents arent' really even trying.

I hope this makes sense, this post was getting kinda long.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that we are saying the same thing, just in a different way.

Two observations:

Appox. 60 to 75 percent of the money that's won or lost in cash games is bet on the turn and the river.

The terms TAG and LAG tell you lots about preflop and flop play, and a lot less about turn and river play, which depends on reads and prior action. Even the laggiest LAG, if he's smart, knows how to shut down on late streets when he's behind and can't push an opponent out of a pot.