stat collection post

[elindauer]

Someone once posted about the odds of 1 pair / 2 pair etc winning at showdown, along with the expected frequency of these hands. This is a great way to determine if you are currently running well / running bad, provided that you are otherwise a winning player.

The problem with this post for me is that I don't know what limit the hands were played at, or the style of the poster. Playing weak-tight vs LAG vs TAG vs LP at 100/200 vs .5/1 etc is going to have, I think, a big impact on these things. A lot fewer hands even reach a showdown as the limits go up.

In an effort to fine tune this research, I'm trying to find these numbers for TAG play in the party mid limits.


Check out the misc tab in pokertracker, select the "only show hands that went to showdown" button, and then please post the following for all hands played between 10/20 and 20/40 at partypoker:

# of hands
% win with 1 pair
% win with 2 pair
% win with trips
% win with str8
% win with flush
% win with full house

and number of times dealt all of the above.


In an effort to do a little filtering on these stats, please include the following general description of your play:

pfr
vp$ip
vp$ip not a blind
postflop AF


If you want to break the numbers out by limit that would be even better (can this be done easily in pokertracker?). Otherwise, perhaps you could mention what limits you play.

If possible, please limit your stats to only those from this year.

Finally, if possible please limit your hands to those played with at least 7 players at the table.

I'll collect the data for a few days and then make a summary post with interesting stats.


thanks,
Eric

[elindauer]

hands: 77,492
showdowns not folded: 10,865
high card: won $ 16.39% 1,005 times
1 pair: 35.88% 2,923
2 pair: 53.4% 1.844
trips: 75.16% 630
str8: 83% 432
flush: 76.72% 314
full: 86.73% 375
4 of a kind: 94.12% 25



vp$ip: 21.8%
pfr: 12.19%
postflop AF: 2.4
went to showdown: 36.24%

[shant]

I may be an idiot for this, but I'm having a hard time finding these percentages or the "showdown" checkbox. I'm looking under "Misc. Tabs" so maybe you're referring to these things with a different wording?

[elindauer]

Hi shant,

In the main pokertracker screen, there are several tabs labelled "general info", "session notes" ...

Click the one named "Misc. Stats".

In this screen, the top table is called "Known Final Hand Summary". Way to the right is a checkbox "Show Only Hands That Were Not Folded". Click that.

Now report the Hands Won $ and Won $ at SD columns.

To get the general stats, click the "General Info" main tab.

Now Click the "More Detail..." button at the top right of the first table. In this popup, you can find VP$IP, VP$IP not a blind, pfr, Went to SD, etc. Deselect the "Include Preflop numbers in Total Aggression Factor calculation" button to make sure your AF is postflop only.


-Eric

[shant]

Thanks I was figuring those were the ones you were talking about but didn't want to ruin the stats collection. Here are mine, from 10/20 & 15/30:

hands: 39,233
showdowns not folded: 4,163
high card: won $ 20.10% 327 times
1 pair: 45.25% 1,127
2 pair: 57.82% 736
trips: 74.89% 304
str8: 83.33% 169
flush: 87.84% 175
full: 85.14% 175
4 of a kind: 100% 16



vp$ip: 18.53%
pfr: 12.17%
postflop AF: 2.04
went to showdown: 30.88%

[hobbsmann]

Shant is your WTSD around 30% for all your levels of full ring?

[shant]

[ QUOTE ]
Shant is your WTSD around 30% for all your levels of full ring?

[/ QUOTE ]
Between 31-34% from 2/4 and up. I saw this was lower than elindauer's %. Is this too low or something?

[Dazarath]

Limit: 15/30
Total hands: 61,625
high card -- 14.48% -- 544/798 (hands won $/total times)
1 pair -- 39.19% -- 1814/2835
2 pair -- 54.89% -- 1238/1898
trips -- 70.95% -- 459/572
straight -- 83.66% -- 288/330
flush -- 81.09% -- 246/291
boat -- 90.23% -- 309/344

VPIP - 20.48%
PFR - 11.17%
AF - 2.18
WtSD - 33.38%

One thing you should keep in mind. If we play correctly, we should be folding more losers than the average player, so the stats may show that our hands "hold up" more than they actually do, because we're able to get away from them before showdown.

[dankhank]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Shant is your WTSD around 30% for all your levels of full ring?

[/ QUOTE ]
Between 31-34% from 2/4 and up. I saw this was lower than elindauer's %. Is this too low or something?

[/ QUOTE ]

your showdown % is right where it should be based on your preflop stats, imo. but at 15/30, 34% is better than 30% or else you're getting pushed around some.

[adspar]

10/20 and 15/30
29,309 hands
2,306 showdowns

high card: won $ SD 19.75%, 228 times dealt
1 pair: 45.83%, 876
2 pair: 54.39%, 575
trips: 68.67%, 216
str8: 77.97%, 123
flush: 83.19%, 128
full: 82.57%, 126
4 of a kind: 100%, 8


vp$ip - 19.31%
pfr - 12.02%
postflop AF - 1.83
went to SD - 36.89%

looks like i'm too much of a calldown monkey

[lil feller]

Are these full ring Eric. I always feel like I play so loose in the 15, and my VPIP is like 18. I wonder what you're playing that i'm not to get to 21.8.

My PFR is about 10...interesting. I don't have my PT stuff handy, but i'll post it later.

lf

[molawn2mo]

hands: 25,216
showdowns not folded: 1,899
high card: won $ 15.15/198
1 pair: 41.08/707
2 pair: 53.89/470
trips: 72.86/172
str8: 88.78/118
flush: 87.50/105
full: 89.13/115
4 of a kind: 100.00/11
royal fl 100.00/1
str8 fl 100.00/2


vp$ip: 17.58
pfr: 11.35
postflop AF: 2.08
went to showdown: 35.32

edit for 10/20 limit

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
hands: 77,492
showdowns not folded: 10,865
high card: won $ 16.39% 1,005 times
1 pair: 35.88% 2,923
2 pair: 53.4% 1.844
trips: 75.16% 630
str8: 83% 432
flush: 76.72% 314
full: 86.73% 375
4 of a kind: 94.12% 25



vp$ip: 21.8%
pfr: 12.19%
postflop AF: 2.4
went to showdown: 36.24%

[/ QUOTE ]

I can only imagine you are running cold. An aweful W$SD with 1 pair and flushes. I've done similiar analysis in the past here.

link (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=2796877&an=0&page=0#Post 2796877)

Krishan

[Brom]

These hands are a mix of 10/20 and 15/30.
VPIP: 15.95%
PFR: 10.53%
Postflop AF: 2.33
Went to SD: 34.38%

Total Hands: 35591
"Went to SD": 2143 (I think that's the column you wanted, all hand numbers came from this column anyways)

1P: 818 / 49.14%
2P: 698 / 66.33%
Trips: 163 / 72.39%
Straight: 108 / 83.33%
Flush: 104 / 86.54%
FH: 107 / 88.79%
Quads: 20 / 80.0%
Straight Flush: 0 / Boo
Royal Flush: 1 / Awesome

This database was started around mid-summer, I'd say about the beginning of July. I start new databases frequently, and don't have an all encompassing one to work with. Is there a way to put them all in one?

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
Are these full ring Eric. I always feel like I play so loose in the 15, and my VPIP is like 18. I wonder what you're playing that i'm not to get to 21.8.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd only be guessing, but I'd speculate that we play differently from the late position and the blinds. If you're anything like the players I've coached, I may even play tighter than you in early position.

I steal a lot, and I defend a lot. When I choose to play, I'm aggressive and stubborn. I try to play ring games the same way I play shorthanded from the same position.

-Eric

[elindauer]

Thanks krishan, this is actually the post I was referring to in the OP. Can you tell us how these hands were collected? Were they all played by you? Random people? At what limits?

My goal is to find these numbers for tight-aggressive play in a particular game. If your 400K database already represents this, then it will save me some time... /images/graemlins/smile.gif

thanks,
eric

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks krishan, this is actually the post I was referring to in the OP. Can you tell us how these hands were collected? Were they all played by you? Random people? At what limits?

My goal is to find these numbers for tight-aggressive play in a particular game. If your 400K database already represents this, then it will save me some time... /images/graemlins/smile.gif

thanks,
eric

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't remember. It was from a post title "post your Misc stats tab here", or something like that. There were 4-5 people from 5/10 or 10/20 shorthand who posted screenshots of their misc tab in that thread which is what I based my analysis of. (In combination with my own stats)

Krishan

[hobbsmann]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Shant is your WTSD around 30% for all your levels of full ring?

[/ QUOTE ]
Between 31-34% from 2/4 and up. I saw this was lower than elindauer's %. Is this too low or something?

[/ QUOTE ]
Mine is around 37% and I think it is a stat that should increase as you move up in levels as in general the games are getting more aggresive and you will often want to be showing down more hands. A month or so ago while browsing the archives I came across a Nate Tha' Great post where he talked about his WTSD being 40%+ in the 10/20 6max game and that in his opinion most people here were not showing down as much is truely optimal.

I'm not sure how other 2+2'ers stack up, but I'm guessing if you are under 35%ish at 10/20+ you are sacrificing value in a fair amount of marginal situations.

[elindauer]

The reason I started this post is that, after reading Krishan's post, it looked to me like I was running bad. Since I'm winning over 2BB / 100, I found this pretty encouraging in an odd kind of way, but wanted to check this conclussion.

Since my data is somewhat biased, here are the totals from the 190K hands, not including mine, from players with pretty similar styles, at least, judging by the stats:

high card: win% 17%
1 pair: 43.6%
2 pair: 57.4%
trips: 71.9%
str8: 83.3%
flush: 84.7%
full: 87.6%
4 of a kind: 95.3%


And I didn't do str8-flushes, for no reason in particular.

I also calculated the % of your showdown hands that should be "premium" hands, ie, trips or better. This came out to 23.9%.

These stats are right in line with Krishan's findings, so we now have 600 - 700K worth of data suggesting these winrates are standard for TAG play and give a good baseline for judging if you are running well or running bad.


On a personal level, I conclude that I'm getting an average number of premium hands, but both my premium hands and my 1 pair hands are holding up at substantially lower than normal rates. The forecast: good things to come in 2006!


Thanks to all who participated.
Eric

[lil feller]

Do you think its possible that your 1 pair percentage is low because you're running bad, or because you're showing down too many 1 pair hands? Or maybe a combination of the two? I'm not trying to imply anything, I just wonder if having a % that low is an indication that your WTSD% w/ 1 pair is too high. Just a thought.

lf

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you think its possible that your 1 pair percentage is low because you're running bad, or because you're showing down too many 1 pair hands? Or maybe a combination of the two? I'm not trying to imply anything, I just wonder if having a % that low is an indication that your WTSD% w/ 1 pair is too high. Just a thought.

lf

[/ QUOTE ]

This method of comparing your personal numbers to proven numbers is a dismal way to try and improve your game. Stats alignment is not great when you are talking VP$IP or PFR but downright horrible when you get to the misc. tab.

Krishan

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you think its possible that your 1 pair percentage is low because you're running bad, or because you're showing down too many 1 pair hands? Or maybe a combination of the two? I'm not trying to imply anything, I just wonder if having a % that low is an indication that your WTSD% w/ 1 pair is too high. Just a thought.

lf

[/ QUOTE ]

I play pretty fast and loose at times, especially from the big blind, so I do think this has some effect on my numbers. I'd guess this could explain perhaps half of the difference. The rest is just bad luck.

Don't shed a tear for me though, 2 BB / 100 still pays the bills. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

-Eric