Question for the LAGs

[Endlestorm]

I've slowly made the conversion to (what I feel is) LAG play over the past 4 months or so. I think me and LAG are a good match. However, I have two questions. One, simple, is what do the VP$P and PFR% typically for you winning LAGs?

My less simple question... After sitting at a table for a while, and trying to take down most pots, people are going to play back at you. Sometimes they are going to have the goods, and sometimes they won't. I often hear myself saying when I fire at an A-high flop and get raised "They are frustrated with my aggression, and are trying to make a move, but this time I ACTUALLY have TPTK". In retrospect, it seems that more often than not I am beat in these situations, and that these morons haven't even noticed how many pots I'm taking down and are just playing their standard lines. But on the occassion that there is a thinking player and my 3-bet on the flop takes it down, I feel warm and fuzzy inside. Emotionally the warm-fuzzy makes up for the cold-prickly, but not financially.

One way to solve the problem is to simply switch tables when you get suspicious that people are trying to wrench control from you. But I can't leave my 4x buy-in stack.

What is the solution??

[xorbie]

The solution is to play poker with the players and steal from the chumps.

The solution, when the cards aren't coming and people are playing back at you, is to SLOW DOWN. LAG play only pays off when 1. You're taking down lots of small pots without a fight or 2. People get so frustrated that they're playing back at you with lesser holdings.

In this case it sounds like they're just using you to build a pot whenever they have a hand, so you should slow down, or move on to a new table if you want to continue speeding.

[yvesaint]

hey when people are trying to wrench control from you, thats the best, now hit a hand or two

also im 25/22 when playing my a-game

[trevor]

[ QUOTE ]
hey when people are trying to wrench control from you, thats the best, now hit a hand or two

also im 25/22 when playing my a-game

[/ QUOTE ]

So basically you are never limping? WTF that sounds stressful.

[Big_Jim]

What everybody here has said is pretty much right on.

If you always assume that people are just "making moves" at you, then you are going to spew chips at them.

When you steal 10 pots in a row, and then a guy finally decides to fight back... sure, there's a good chance that he's "had enough," but there's also a good chance that he waited for 10 pots, and now he finally caught a hand.

TPTK type hands DO become even more difficult to play when people start playing back at you, specifically for this reason, but TPTK doesn't usually make for huge pots, anyway. (Unless you're playing 25/50+, those guys are nuts)

When playing LAG, you win a bunch of small pots, the medium pots are kind of a wash, and all of those pots help build up an image where you get paid off big on your good hands.

I'm about 30/17

[Big_Jim]

[ QUOTE ]
One way to solve the problem is to simply switch tables when you get suspicious that people are trying to wrench control from you. But I can't leave my 4x buy-in stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not a good solution.

IMO, the primary reason to play LAG is to get paid off big on your monsters, and paid off better than most on your mediocre hands.

If they start playing back at you too much... tighten up, or make a big calldown if the situation is right.

When you make a big calldown, people get scared to bluff you, especially if you were right.

[Endlestorm]

Last night I played a short (400 hand, 6max 2/4) session and was 34/22. And no, I was never limping.

[yvesaint]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
hey when people are trying to wrench control from you, thats the best, now hit a hand or two

also im 25/22 when playing my a-game

[/ QUOTE ]

So basically you are never limping? WTF that sounds stressful.

[/ QUOTE ]

when im first in the pot im almost always raising

i will limp 22-55 behind limpers, or cold-call raises in LP, or occasionally limp/cc 87s type hands etc. but i basically never open-limp, never really a situation where i find this necessary

[Big_Jim]

I occationally open limp, but it is very rare.

Here are a couple of times when I consider it:

a) On the button with a hand like Axs, SC, small PP, rags
Although I rarely do it, I like doing it against passive players, because you can get cheap steals against the blinds when they check to you on the flop. People won't usually play back at you much in unraised pots, and it's cheaper than a pre-flop steal.

b) EP with small pocket pairs and SCs at a passive table.
Pretty obvious.

c) EP with big pocket pairs AKs at an aggressive table
LRR is fun, although I don't do it very often.

d) EP with small PPs and SCs at aggressive table
Sometimes, you can find sweet situations for a squeeze play. Especially good when there's an over-agro player in the blinds.

e) Open completing small blind with passive BB
Lots of hands that are too good to fold getting 3:1, but not really worth playing in a raised pot OOP.

f) When there's a short stack that's pushing a bunch of hands, with big pairs, AKs.

But yeah.. I almost never open limp.

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
Last night I played a short (400 hand, 6max 2/4) session and was 34/22. And no, I was never limping.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im 36/24 and rarely open limp.

[Raven]

I'm 20/10 and not lag, and I win !

[trevor]

Oh, and those are 6-max #'s btw right?

Phew! Now I feel better. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[scdavis0]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Last night I played a short (400 hand, 6max 2/4) session and was 34/22. And no, I was never limping.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im 36/24 and rarely open limp.

[/ QUOTE ]

36/24? jesus

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Last night I played a short (400 hand, 6max 2/4) session and was 34/22. And no, I was never limping.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im 36/24 and rarely open limp.

[/ QUOTE ]

36/24? jesus

[/ QUOTE ]

Eh, thats a little trumped up. I try to play as much HU / 3handed as possible - so I filtered PT for exactly 6handed, and Im 32/20. 5 and under I'm 40/28.

[beset7]

what's your standard deviation playing like that bobbo?

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
what's your standard deviation playing like that bobbo?

[/ QUOTE ]

where do i find that? session tab? (btw, finally got a pm to you. sry for delay)

[BobboFitos]

nm, i found it. strikes me a little high.

edit: Rather,
51.1/hr
53.9/100 hands tab.

I dont understand these stats, if someone could explain it, that would rock...

[PugX]

[ QUOTE ]
nm, i found it. strikes me a little high.

edit: Rather,
51.1/hr
53.9/100 hands tab.


[/ QUOTE ]

Mine is 34.5/100.

But I'm a rather conservative player and play most of the hands 5-6-handed. I guees fluctuation goes up a lot by playing 2-3-handed.

[PugX]

I usually open limp with hands like A7s or A5s (if not stealing). Is that good or do you guys find it better to raise them?

[FlyingStart]

How do you follow up postflop when you raise so much before the flop?

[Endlestorm]

Fire! Fire!

[FlyingStart]

Will this not cause your play to get really preditable and easy to take advantage of? Anyone half decent will KNOW that you don't have a hand over 50% of the time and that you don't have a good hand more than 25% of the time. Sitting left of someone who raises that much and always pots the flop sounds like a sweet scenario to me..

[yvesaint]

[ QUOTE ]
How do you follow up postflop when you raise so much before the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

mmmmmbet

[xorbie]

Recently I've tried to mix up my play a ton re: open limping or overlimping with a lot of hands I used to raise like AJs and trying to outplay people postflop because they never expect me to have an A.

[Raven]

[ QUOTE ]
I usually open limp with hands like A7s or A5s (if not stealing). Is that good or do you guys find it better to raise them?

[/ QUOTE ]

Open limping them in early position in a real passive game can be good, in an aggressive game as most of the 6 max online games are, its really bad. You will get yourselve with a drawing hand out of position in a raised pot, not a thing you want in nl. So just fold them preflop in early position and raise them first in in late when you want to play them.

[beset7]

I dont understand these stats, if someone could explain it, that would rock...

[/ QUOTE ]

I've just started trying to get a better understand of SD. I'm currently reading Gambling Theory and Other Topics and I'm starting to get it. Since my last big downswing a few months I’ve been very interested in the topic and I feel like many NL players in these forums, including me, have a very thin understanding of these concepts. Once I get my thoughts I gathered I’m thinking of making a big post about it.

Your SD is actually lower then I would expect it to be playing that aggressive. You must be playing pretty TAG postflop?

The extent of what I can do with that stat is calculate your risk of ruin using a projected win rate and the size of your bankroll and depending on how big the sample size is project a WR within a certain range with x% level of confidence. As well as determine what type of swings should be normal/expected if you WR is accurate and what type of swings are statistically unlikely. here (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=4017904&an=0&page=21 #Post4017904) is a post in one of the other forums that has the ROR calculations if you are interested.

The main use I've found for it is the aftermention ROR calculations. It's nice to now have a better sense of how much dough I need for certain levels (at a speculative WR for the levels I have less then 100k hands at) to essentially preclude going broke absent tilt, bad table selection or defcon iv type downswing.

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
How do you follow up postflop when you raise so much before the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I check, bet, raise, call, or fold

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
Will this not cause your play to get really preditable and easy to take advantage of? Anyone half decent will KNOW that you don't have a hand over 50% of the time and that you don't have a good hand more than 25% of the time. Sitting left of someone who raises that much and always pots the flop sounds like a sweet scenario to me..

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont auto pot the flop whatsoever. I check alot of flops, and I rarely bet the full pot. Sometimes I'll overbet. Breaking down my postflop approach would take alot longer then one paragraph /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ahnuld]

Switch gears

[Big_Jim]

[ QUOTE ]

I usually open limp with hands like A7s or A5s (if not stealing). Is that good or do you guys find it better to raise them?

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
a) On the button with a hand like Axs, SC, small PP, rags
Although I rarely do it, I like doing it against passive players, because you can get cheap steals against the blinds when they check to you on the flop. People won't usually play back at you much in unraised pots, and it's cheaper than a pre-flop steal.


[/ QUOTE ]

[FlyingStart]

Ok, this is good to hear. Your raise preflop tho, is always 4*BB? or to you mix that up too (minraises?)?

[PugX]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I usually open limp with hands like A7s or A5s (if not stealing). Is that good or do you guys find it better to raise them?

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
a) On the button with a hand like Axs, SC, small PP, rags
Although I rarely do it, I like doing it against passive players, because you can get cheap steals against the blinds when they check to you on the flop. People won't usually play back at you much in unraised pots, and it's cheaper than a pre-flop steal.


[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, and in other positions? Is it only on the button?

[jullep]

in that order?

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, this is good to hear. Your raise preflop tho, is always 4*BB? or to you mix that up too (minraises?)?

[/ QUOTE ]

pot

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
in that order?

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, i dont know /images/graemlins/blush.gif