Trips line help...5/10

[waveball]

Long time lurker hopefully will start to post more hands. I play 1/2-2/4 as my regular game....been runnig real well so i have been taking some shots at 3/6 and 5/10. anyway:

I have 1300 in CO, villian is in EP with 1000..he just sat down.

villian limps, i limp with A /images/graemlins/club.gif 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif, button limps, BB checks. 4 to flop.

flop J, 3, 3.
check to me i bet 20, villian calls.

turn 9 completes rainbow.
he checks, i bet 70, he raises to 160, I?

[trevor]

I'm having a hard time trying to get what villan is representing here. No way he has JJ or 99, so folding is out of the question. Your flop bet looks weak and he may be just setting up the delayed bluff on the turn. If he is in there w/ something cute like 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif I may not want to lose him by 3-betting to $360. Might be a good image play though.

[crosse91]

why are jj and 99 out of the question?

[waveball]

My thought process was much like yours but I do think 99 is very possible. So am I three betting folding to a push?

[BK_]

this is actually a common situation and one that i do not play optimally everytime.

his turn raise does not scare you enough to shut down. you would like to get more money in the pot, but you would like to do so in a way that maximizes profit vs his 4 most likely hands: J9, J good kicker, 3 worse kicker, and full house.

if stacks were deeper, it would be an easy decision to call the turn raise and 2/3 pot the river. this gets paid off by most of those worse hands, and has the added benefit of leaving you room to get away vs a better hand. it is unlikely that he will raise the river with a worse hand, so that is not a problem.

the stacks arnt that deep however, so the stop and go is somewhat less attractive. you still get paid off nicely vs worse hands, but now the advantage of being able to get away vs better hands does not hold. you will be getting too good of odds on the river no matter what.

so now that we do not care about folding vs better hands, it becomes a matter of extracting the max from worse hands. i see 3 options being pretty equal: 3 betting the turn smallish, calling the turn and betting the river, and calling the turn and c/r the river. someone please convince me that one is better than the other.

[waveball]

Thanks for the response. The question for me really is how big of a pot do I want to play...as you said this is a common situation and one that is often played incorrectly in NL. I think a three bet on the turn is bad, it gives him an out if indeed he has J9, AJ or even a worse three....but it commits me when im beat. Given stack sizes is being committed for all 100BBs something I cant avoid? I have postion so I cant check raise the river. So is really calling his turn raise and calling a river bet the best line? Just seems strange to me.

[trevor]

[ QUOTE ]
why are jj and 99 out of the question?

[/ QUOTE ]

If he's got either of those hands why would he check raise the turn? Makes no sense. He gets everything to fold except hands containing a 3. He's got the whole deck I just can't see why he'd want to shut us out unless he puts hero on the 3. If he has JJ/99 I am paying off 100% of the time if I call turn and he bets river.

Because you have no read I am inclied to call turn and river. I also bet if checked to.

[trevor]

[ QUOTE ]
So is really calling his turn raise and calling a river bet the best line? Just seems strange to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's close but yes, I'd say that's my default line.

[trevor]

Waveball results?

[Bukem_]

Isn't pot 45 on the flop?

Small flop bet gets you in trouble, and allows 99 to peel if he thinks you may have the 3, and he can bust you if he catches.

[waveball]

Didnt want this thread to be results orientated...but I called his turn raise...river was an Ace. He pushed and I donked off my stack...he indeed had JJ.

[pokerjoker]

flop raise seems really small to me. Do you bet this little with a jack or an underpair?

[waveball]

I like to bet small like this with dry flops that are checked to me in postion. I pick up alot pots this way for cheap. This is not my normal game and villian has nothing on me and i have nothing on him.

[trevor]

That is a pretty good bet on the river regardless of what villian has. Sorry it didn't work out for you. How does the action change if the river isn't the A?

[waveball]

Real good question...probally doesnt change anything. If Im beat on the turn than Im basically dead...so the ace doesnt change anything.

[BK_]

yea, its a tough situation, because no matter what your play you make it very easy for the villian to make the best EV decision.

also agreed that 3 betting is the worst option vs most decent players, for the same reasons you mentioned.

so it comes down to leading the river or check/raising. (i think check calling isnt great unless you are vs a good / tight player, as vs normal players you are +50% to win the hand and the villian will not fold on the river to your c/r with any of the aforementioned hands) i think my default is to bet the river and call a raise vs an average to unimpressive player, since its possible he has some J hand and will check behind.